HC Deb 07 May 1970 vol 801 cc556-8
12. Mr. Kenneth Baker

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to announce definitive figures of expenditure on education for the years 1972–73 and 1973–74 to replace the provisional figures given in the White Paper on Public Expenditure, Command Paper No. 4234.

25. Mr. J. E. B. Hill

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to publish revised estimates for public expenditure on education for 1972–73 and 1973–74 beyond the provisional figures in Command Paper No. 4234 showing a 2 per cent. annual increase for those years.

Mr. Edward Short

For 1972–73, in the autumn, when another White Paper on public expenditure will be published. 1973–74 figures will remain provisional until next year.

Mr. Baker

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise, even at this stage, that the forecasts in the last White Paper are inadequate regarding educational expenditure? To what extent have these inadequate forecasts been increased by the Prime Minister's speech last Friday, which would involve an increase in educational expenditure? Have the Prime Minister's proposals been costed?

Mr. Short

The Prime Minister last Friday made a first-rate speech in which he set forward 11 points, on which I hope there will be a national debate, on the way ahead for the next quarter of a century in education. Has the hon. Gentleman looked at the costing of some of the Opposition's proposals? The White Paper published at the end of last year was the first of a series—and this is the first time any Government have clone forecasting and have published figures of this kind. One would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would have given us credit for that. If he refers to paragraph 32 of the White Paper, he will see that the Government have not yet made a decision on the levels for individual programmes for 1972–73 and 1973–74.

Mr. Hill

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give us some provisional figures in advance of next autumn? We should like to know the costings of the Prime Minister's offer, but could not the right hon. Gentleman also tell us what part of the 2 per cent. is taken up by existing known commitments, such as the increase in teachers' salaries, student grants and the care of mentally-handicapped children?

Mr. Short

It is precisely because we wish to give provisional figures in a way in which no Government have ever done before that we have started to publish the annual White Paper. The firm figures for the first year will be given in the autumn. In the same White Paper, we will give the provisional figures for 1973–74.

Mr. Newens

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us on this side of the House are also worried about the provisional figures, since we feel that they are inadequate? We ask him strongly to fight against the pressure continually being brought to bear by hon. Members opposite for reductions in public expenditure which are totally at variance with their hypocritical claims for expansion of public expenditure on education in 1973–74?

Mr. Short

I do not know whether hon. Members listen to what I am saying. I repeat that paragraph 32 of the White Paper makes it clear that these are provisional figures and that decisions have not yet been taken on the levels of individual programmes. The firm figures for 1972–73 will be given in the White Paper published this autumn.

Mrs. Thatcher

On previous occasions, the right hon. Gentleman has been quick to say that the Department did not approve these provisional figures. Can I at least invite him to say that he thinks that they are inadequate for his plans?

Mr. Short

The hon. Lady must await the White Paper in the autumn. This is a much more sophisticated way of planning public expenditure than the Conservative Government ever attempted.