HC Deb 01 May 1970 vol 800 cc1716-28

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hamling.]

4.10 p.m.

Mr. David Winnick (Croydon, South)

I have given my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary due notice of the matter that I wish to raise today. I refer to the circular which his Ministry has sent out to local authorities about concessionary fares for the retired, the blind and the disabled. I am sure that the local authorities will appreciate the information it gives, and that they will be glad of guidance on how in general terms to calculate concessionary fares.

The point I want to make, however, is that the Ministry should consider sending out to local authorities and, in particular, to the authorities in the London Boroughs Association a further circular reminding them of their powers to grant concessionary fares to the retired and the disabled in the off-peak hours, and to encourage them to do so.

It is a matter of great concern that in Greater London area no such scheme exists. Retired and disabled people are not helped in any way by concessionary fares in the off-peak hours. It seems to me to be a near scandal that the London Boroughs Association should have turned down any suggestion for concessionary fares of this kind in the Greater London area. Precisely because of the attitude of the London Boroughs Association, I believe that my hon. Friend would be justified in sending out to that body such a circular as I suggest.

The circular could remind the London Boroughs Association that since retired and disabled people in many parts of the country enjoy this concession of reduced fares, there is no reason why such people in Greater London should be denied it. I just cannot understand why there seems to be this attitude on the part of councillors, who make up the majority of the representatives on the London Boroughs Association, in turning down requests for such a scheme. I also believe that the London boroughs should be reminded of their powers to grant concessionary fares to the disabled, the retired and the blind.

My hon. Friend may be able to tell us how many local authorities responsible for their own transport undertakings grant concessionary fares. The House will be extremely interested to have that information. But whatever the figure may be, it does not alter the fact that in Greater London the power recently given by the Act to the London Boroughs Association has not in any way been implemented.

In the circular that I suggest should be sent out, the London Boroughs Association should be reminded that concessionary fares are extremely important to retired people, for very many of them on fixed incomes find it extremely difficult to travel any great distance just because of the high fares. The news we had yesterday of the massive fares increase proposed for Greater London makes the need for concessionary fares all the more relevant.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins (Putney)

Does not my hon. Friend agree that if the Greater London Council, which is now in charge of London Transport, were to talk with the London Boroughs Association, the two bodies could between them, without difficulty, quite quickly introduce a scheme?

Mr. Winnick

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am not at all happy about the attitude of the Greater London Council, but it is a matter, apparently, for the London Boroughs Association, which is made up of representatives of all 32 of the Greater London Boroughs. It is because of that that I would like my hon. Friend to remind them of their permissive powers, and suggest that they should implement the powers granted under the Act.

In Greater London we are faced with numerous requests for concessionary fares from retired people. They write to us and see us in our " surgeries ". They ask, " Why is it that we have waited for so many years and yet not even now are we in a position to enjoy travel concessions? Why is it that in other parts of the country a pensioner just produces his pension book and is enabled during off-peak hours to pay a fare reduced by a third or a half and we cannot do so? " I hope my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate that these people have a very strong case. If people in other parts of the country who enjoy such a concession why should—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)

The hon. Member is arguing in detail the responsibility put on a local authority, but in this debate he can argue only about the responsibility on the Minister. The Minister has responsibility only for the circular. He has no power to insist that action be taken on it. The hon. Member must refer only to the circular and in that respect about the responsibility on the Minister.

Mr. Winnick

Two circulars have been sent out and the Ministry has exercised administrative powers. In Greater London the Ministry should send a further circular to the London Boroughs Association. I hope that under the rules of order I may argue that in that circular the Minister should make the point clearly that elderly people are entitled to such concessions and that it would be wrong for any authority not to use these powers. No doubt that point could be conveyed in the circular. Perhaps my hon. Friend will make that clear when he replies to this debate.

Some of my hon. Friends wish to take part in this debate so I shall not delay the House much longer. I have been convinced for a long time that elderly people, certainly most of those on small incomes, should be able to enjoy travel concessions. I had hoped that with the transfer of responsibility from the Ministry to the G.L.C. these concessions would be implemented more or less immediately. If the London Boroughs Association had shown any desire to bring the concession into being, I would not have raised this matter today. Because I am convinced that there is no such desire in the majority of London borough councils for such a concession to be given, I urge my hon. Friend to send out a new circular to the Association saying that retired people in Greater London should have travel concessions.

4.18 p.m.

Mr. Laurence Pavitt (Willesden, West)

As you have pointed out, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is a very narrow debate. I shall do my best to keep within the terms of order, but the suggested circular is of great importance, especially to my constituents. The point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) is of extreme concern to a large number of senior citizens' clubs in my constituency and, I am sure, to many others.

I give great credit to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, who fought in opposition for a long time for this reform. One of the earliest Measures passed by this Government when we came to office made provision for concessionary fares to be allowed for elderly people. Those of us who represent London constituencies went to old-age pensioners' federations and senior citizens' clubs claiming credit for the fact that we were able to do this with the support of the Ministry of Transport, which gave adequate guidance. Now we are in the situation in which when we meet constituents five years later we have to apologise because, although the guidance has been given by the Ministry and it is possible for local authorities to make the concession, this does not happen. It should be made quite plain to Londoners in general that responsibility for this rests with the local authorities.

I urge the Parliamentary Secretary when considering a further circular to make quite clear in it the kind of provisions which are possible and how they could be extended to enable old people to visit their families. In an area such as my constituency with a large amount of Victorian dwellings built a hundred years ago, the tendency has been as families have grown up for members of those families to move into other London areas. From Willesden they move to Wembley across the North Circular Road. Then there is great hardship for grandparents who wish to visit their grandchildren, because the fares on the buses make great inroads into their small incomes. In view of the possible large increase in fares this may be enough to make it impossible for an old person to visit her grandchildren and, thus, people are denied the kind of family cohesion which the whole House wants to see.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins

The present high bus fares mean that old people living on large estates such as Roehampton are virtually imprisoned within the area in which they live and cannot make frequent visits to friends living reasonably close at hand or to relatives living sometimes in the same parliamentary constituency.

Mr. Pavitt

This happens in a number of constituencies, but it does not happen so much in mine, because most of our Part III homes are within an area with a large amount of residential accommodation. There are 4,000 old people living in single rooms in my constituency. When old persons' places—blocks of flats specially designed—become available, the problem is that, instead of old people taking up the option, they tend to remain within the community because they do not want to move away from their children and grandchildren.

We are drawing attention to the need for compassion. The responsibility rests on the boroughs to give this concession. I realise that I have moved out of order now, so I shall sit down rapidly.

When my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary issues the circular to the 32 London boroughs, to the London Boroughs Association, and to the Greater London Council, I appeal to him to ensure that all points that have been made in this short debate are brought to the fore.

4.22 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Bob Brown)

I have probably spent more time in the House, both as a back bencher and as a member of the Government, discussing the subject of travel concessions than any other subject. As I have introduced two Private Members' Bills designed to make available to the elderly the concessions which the Government have now made available, hon. Members will clearly see where my sympathies lie.

The elderly, the blind and the disabled cannot always get about as they want, especially if they are old age pensioners living on a fixed income, and cheaper public transport is a blessing for them. I think it is proof of the concern of the whole House for these people that a great deal of parliamentary business has been devoted to exploring the problems which they face.

My hon. Friend, the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) has been particularly vigilant in this sphere. He has been tireless in his efforts both inside and outside this Chamber to make sure that there can be no complacency on this issue. I am sure that we all admire and appreciate the very considerable time, energy, intelligence and social conscience which he has brought to bear on this subject.

My right hon. Friend and I have received many representations from hon. Members on behalf of constituents and from ordinary members of the public on this matter, so it will prove useful if I take this opportunity of explaining exactly what provisions have now been made for travel concessions in London and in the country as a whole. In this way I hope it will become clear, without any possible grounds for misconception in future, where the responsibility for travel concessions now lies.

Travel concessions for the elderly, the blind, the disabled, for schoolchildren, and sometimes for council members travelling on council business, have traditionally been given by many local authorities on municipal undertakings. But powers have been available for this purpose only in comparatively recent years. It was only in 1955 that the practice of granting concessions on municipal transport was fully legalised, under the Public Service Vehicles (Travel Concessions) Act, 1955, but this Act did no more than legally permit concessions which were already being granted. It did not allow any extension.

That had to wait till the advent of a Labour Government in 1964, when the first Act passed by this Government, the Travel Concessions Act, 1964, gave local authorities a general permissive power to arrange these concessions on municipal transport. However, rate-assisted concessions could still not be given on non- municipal transport, and non-municipal operators do not generally give concessions on their own account except, traditionally, to schoolchildren. We felt that this situation was very anomalous, so the Minister of Transport carried out a review in consultation with the local authority associations. This review showed a general desire of local authorities, outside London, for wider permissive powers to arrange concessions on non-municipal transport for the elderly, the blind, and the disabled. I want to stress that the review clearly indicated a general desire on the part of local authorities, some of whom have not yet introduced travel concessions, to have the necessary powers.

As a result of this survey, Section 138 of the Transport Act, 1968, provided that local authorities may grant concessions to these categories on the services provided by Passenger Transport Executives, and on any other non-municipal bus, trolley bus, or tram service except London Transport services.

At this time we did not attempt to deal with travel concessions in London, since we took the view that this matter could best be dealt with when we reorganised the whole of the capital's public transport. When we came to deal with this reorganisation in last year's Transport (London) Act we thought it only right that the same powers should be applied to the capital. So Section 40 of the Act which we passed last year specifically empowers the London boroughs and the City Corporation to make arrangements with the new London Transport Executive—which took over from the former nationalised London Transport Board on 1st January—to provide for cheaper fares to be paid to the elderly, the blind and the disabled in their areas.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins

Will my hon. Friend agree that the circulars which he has issued, and the circular which we hope he will issue, unfortunately have been issued to authorities which are largely Tory-controlled? Is not the situation that while those of us on this side of the House have an interest in this matter, and London boroughs have reposed their interest in us, there is nobody on the other side of the House who takes any interest in this subject whatever? Is not this the basic cause of the trouble?

Mr. Brown

That is possibly fair comment, but I will leave it to my hon. Friend.

As I mentioned earlier, these powers are entirely permissive. As for local authorities elsewhere in the country, it is for the London boroughs and for them alone to decide what use, if any, should be made of them in the Greater London area. My right hon. Friend has no power to intervene in this matter to tell them how their discretion should be exercised. Nor would it be right for him to do so, as the cost of any scheme rests entirely with the local authorities concerned and they must, therefore, have complete discretion to decide what type of scheme, if any, they introduce.

I have been asked if we will send out a circular to the London boroughs reminding them of their powers which we gave them in the Transport (London) Act. As I have said, we have no direct powers at all. The powers are for the London boroughs themselves and I very much doubt whether they need any reminder of their powers.

Mr. Winnick

Does my hon. Friend remember Circular 1065 which gave guidance to the local authorities on an educational matter? Would it not be possible for similar advice to be given to the London Boroughs Association on this matter? Is it not important to get the boroughs, and certainly the London Boroughs Association, to recognise their responsibility to Greater Londoners who are pensioners and who cannot afford the large fares?

Secondly, will my hon. Friend be willing to receive a deputation on this matter from pensioners in the Greater London area?

Mr. Brown

With the best will in the world, I do not think the Minister could be expected to receive deputations. We would have multitudes of deputations, in view of the number of pensioners' associations which exist in the London area.

Returning to the question of the circular which my hon. Friends have suggested, I see no reason why the boroughs should need to be reminded, because they know well enough what their permissive powers are in London. Nevertheless, in view of the pressure from my hon. Friends, I shall consult the Minister on this issue.

Mr. Pavitt

Is there not the further problem that, although the matter is permissive and the Minister has issued a circular, the will of the Labour Government is being thwarted by Tory councils which are not prepared to use their permissive powers? In these circumstances, cannot the Minister send out a further circular making clear that these permissive powers rest with the authorities, and responsibility rests with borough councils for not giving fair concessions to the elderly, the disabled and the blind?

Mr. Brown

As I said, I shall discuss that further with the Minister.

This summary of what we have done illustrates a central theme of Government thought. We believe that the very nature of travel concession schemes demands that they should be a matter for local decision and local initiative. Travel needs and travel costs vary greatly from one area to another. This is an instance where the man in Whitehall clearly does not know best. He is in no position to tell, for example, Geordies or Londoners what journeys the elderly and the disabled want to make in Newcastle or London. He cannot possibly be acquainted with the widely differing areas of the country and their various and changing travel needs. The central Government are simply not equipped to evaluate these complexities. The right people to take on the job are the local authorities with their knowledge of their own areas. It is with them that responsibility does, and must lie. As I have already pointed out, since first taking office we have progressively extended and enlarged the powers of local authorities throughout the country to provide in this way for the needs of their own people.

My right hon. Friend has no powers to intervene in the concession arrangements made between operators and local authorities. By " arrangements " I mean matters like the level of concession granted—free travel, half-fare, and so on —availability of concession—off-peak hours only or any time—and method of operation—tokens, tickets, or passes, and so on. The only area of concessionary fares in which he is at all involved in the method of calculating the cost of providing travel concessions. He has a discretionary power to make an Order prescribing the method under Section 138(7) of the Transport Act. He is not obliged to use this power. The reason why provision was made for the power at all was that both local authorities and operators might find it helpful for statutory provision to be made for a method of calculation which could be recognised as fair to both parties.

It has never been my right hon. Friend's intention that the absence of an Order should deter local authorities and operators from reaching agreement on concessions. We have always made quite plain that, if an Order is made, it would not be retrospective and would not affect the continuance of any agreement which had been reached in the meantime. There is, therefore, no reason why, if operators and local authorities can agree on a mutally acceptable way of calculating the costs, there should be any hold-up at all. 'There is, indeed, nothing to prevent any local authority with the will from providing travel concessions. I underline that, because I sometimes get extremely tired when hon. Friends tell me that their local authority would introduce travel concessions but for the fact that the Minister has not yet laid down a formula. 'There is no reason whatever why that should be used as an excuse for the failure of any local authority to introduce travel concessions.

We have been considering the issues involved in making an Order, and we have now circulated to the associations representing operators and local authorities, including the London Boroughs Association and the G.L.C., the proposals which my right hon. Friend has put forward on this subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South has already received a copy of these proposals, and he referred to them in his speech today. He will be well aware now of their contents. He will have seen that my right hon. Friend's view is that any prescribed method should be on the basis of general principles only, so as to give local authorities and operators the maximum degree of flexibility in the arrangements which they make—which in our view is very important, given that local conditions and circumstances can vary so widely. We are still awaiting the comments of the associations on these proposals. When we have them we shall immediately consider what the most suitable course of action is in the light of these comments.

All that can be said at present is that in our proposals we have tried to be fair to both parties to any agreement, and have based the proposals on the net loss of revenue occasioned to the operator by the grant of concessions.

I want to emphasise again that my right hon. Friend's power to prescribe the method of calculating the cost of travel concessions in no way prevents or inhibits local authorities and public transport operators from concluding agreements independently. My hon. Friend's criticisms have been directed towards the London boroughs, whose association has, I understand, shown some sympathy to the principle of a travel concession scheme, but we understand that it does not consider that the boroughs can afford it in the existing conditions of financial stringency. I can only express the personal hope that they will soon feel able to make some use of the new powers we have given them. But I repeat—the responsibility lies with the London boroughs, and they have to make up their own minds. They alone must decide whether the needs of the less fortunate members of the community they represent are to be provided for, and when provision can suitably be made.

I appreciate that hon. Members feel strongly on this issue, and I well understand why they are pressing with every means at their disposal for action. It is not, however, open to the Minister to trespass in this field, where Parliament has consciously conferred powers on the local authorities. I can only urge hon. Members on both sides of the House who desire to continue urging the introduction of further travel concession schemes to ensure that the views of their constituents are made perfectly plain to those who represent them at local level.

My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South asked how many local authorities up and down the country were already giving concessions to elderly people. I cannot say offhand, but I shall try to find out and let him know. It is fair to say that many thousands of elderly and disabled people are enjoying concessions that they would not yet have enjoyed but for the present Government's Act of 1968.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-two minutes to Five o'clock.