§ Mr. ShinwellOn a point of order. I gave you notice, Mr. Speaker, after a Question was answered that I would raise a point of order at the end of Questions. I want to be enlightened on what I regard as a constitutional issue. I have always been under the impression that it was regarded as improper, and indeed unparliamentary in the context of this House, to criticise noble Lords in another place. That was my impression and, as I say, we ought not to indulge in offensive remarks about noble Lords even by implication.
I happened today to avail myself of a copy of the Lords OFFICIAL REPORT for 613 the debate yesterday and I found that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, had indulged in remarks which some of us would regard as offensive. I do not consider the noble Lord to be of great significance. I recall that he was appointed Minister for Disarmament over a period of years and has not succeeded in disarming anything. He could not disarm a rabbit. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The prologue to what the right hon. Gentleman is saying seems to be ruling his present comments out of order.
§ Mr. ShinwellThis is the point to which I am directing your attention. As I say, I was always under the impression that we are not permitted to indulge in derogatory remarks, and I think I am on record in the 48 years since I came to this House never once to have said an improper word—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—about the gentlemen in another place. If anyone can challenge me, let him look up the record to see that in writings or speeches I have never said a single word which would be regarded as derogatory. When I availed myself of this document, I discovered that the noble Lord was replying to my noble Friend. Lord Blyton, formerly a Member of this House who was much valued and respected.
It may be that the observation for which Lord Chalfont was responsible may be regarded by my hon. and right hon. Friends as not altogether offensive. They may regard it as cynical or amusing and leave it at that. The noble Lord referred to "anti-Common Marketeers". I am not raising a political issue at this stage. He described them as the "pop group". [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I have been accused of many things in this House, and I may be accused of much in the future, but I do not know about a pop group; I think the impression of a pop group is that its members are regarded as what are called "dropouts". [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Everyone to his taste. If some of my hon. Friends are associated with that kind of gentry, I do not object, but the remark is in my view offensive when directed to hon. Members of this House because of their stand on a particular issue of policy. [Interruption.] If my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Atter- 614 cliffe (Mr. John Hynd) wishes to interrupt, I will willingly give way.
§ Mr. John Hynd rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. John Hynd) must address the Chair.
§ Mr. ShinwellI am merely following the usual gentlemanly procedure of this House in giving way to my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe, who I thought wished to intervene.
The constitutional issue to which I draw your attention is this: are we to understand that in future we can make derogatory remarks about noble Lords, or is it understood that there is one rule for the House of Commons and another for the House of Lords? In other words, we are the gentlemen, not permitted to indulge in derogatory and offensive remarks about noble Lords, but they can say what they like about us? I should like an answer to that question.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right hon. Gentleman raises a serious point of order, but he answered his own point of order at the beginning of his remarks. It is not in order for Members of the House of Commons to reflect on members of the House of Lords in commenting on current debates. The right hon. Gentleman, if he wishes to criticise the House of Lords or a member of that House, has his remedy. He can put a Motion down on the Order Paper. What the other place does is no business of Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. Shinwell rose—
§ Mr. ShinwellMr. Speaker has ruled that this is a serious constitutional issue. I merely want to ask whether I am permitted to put down an Early Day Motion about the other place.
§ Mr. SpeakerThis is what I have said the right hon. Gentleman is permitted to do.
§ Mr. John HyndFurther to that point of order. Do I understand that if an hon. Member of this House, in a debate or elsewhere, refers to the "antimarketeers", he is insulting a particular member of the other place?
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is not a point of order.