OFFICIAL LOG BOOKS

HC Deb 11 March 1970 vol 797 cc1494-8

Mr. Patrick Jeukin

I beg to move Amendment No. 46 in page 34,line 5, at end insert: (3) The regulations shall provide for the entry in official log books of particulars (to be specified in the regulations) of any complaint to the master or any officer by any member of the crew or by any passenger where the subject matter of the complaint would, if proved, amount to a criminal offence under the law of England or Scotland; and such regulations may prescribe that a separate section of the official log book shall be designated for the purpose of such entries. Hon. Members who have taken part in our discussion so far will appreciate that this Amendment represents a return to a point which I have been making throughout, starting on Second Reading. It simply provides for the insertion in the log of complaints of criminal offences.

As hon. Members will be aware of the issue, I will not deal with the matter at length. Where a seaman or passenger on a ship makes a complaint of an action amounting to a criminal offence—for example, a complaint of assault—there is, under the present law, no specific obligation resting on the ship's master to record that complaint.

When the ship reaches its home port, it is open to the complainant to take the matter up with the police. However, that person could be in considerable difficulties in doing that, partly because there is no contemporaneous evidence of the complaint having been made and partly because those whose supporting evidence might be valuable in proceedings might find themselves having to deny that a complaint was ever made because they had attempted to hush it up.

All we seek to do here is to impose upon the master an obligation to record in the ship's log any complaints of this nature. In fact, we do not even go as far as that: we give the Board of Trade the power to make regulations to provide that this should be done, and to provide that there might be a separate section of the log in which such complaints could be entered.

I am encouraged to believe that this proposal may have Government support. When I raised the matter in the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman said: … there is a suggestion here which merits deeper consideration. He referred in kind words to what I had said on Second Reading, which, he said … impressed me at the time as an important contribution to our consideration of the Bill. Equally, one should look at what he has said today on the Amendment. I reiterate my present view, that administratively, the best place for entry of any complaint of this nature is in the official log, bearing in mind that Clause 68 enables us to prescribe the form and, as it were, the categorisation, of the log to be kept."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 29th January, 1970; c. 271.] It is perfectly true, and I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will say this now, that under Clause 69, as it now is, he has power already to prescribe that complaints of this nature shall be included in the log, but I do not think that that is enough. This is an entry in the log of a very particular nature; an entry which a master might be tempted not to make unless there was some quite specific obligation on him to do so.

The Minister may be able to give us a specific undertaking that regulations of this sort will be included in the powers under the Bill and, coming from him, of course, we shall unhesitatingly accept it, but I make no bones about the fact that I would prefer to see it actually stated in the Bill so that it appears in the Act of Parliament, and is therefore one of the matters which, when officers and others are being trained and are learning the provisions of the legislation governing their profession, this provision will be brought specifically to their notice.

One cannot guarantee that a complaint of criminal activity or a criminal offence of a disreputable nature will not be hushed up. The most one can do is to try, by making it a specific obligation to record, to add pressure to see that it is not hushed up. As I said in the Committee, it seems best done by a provision in the Measure rather than by just leaving it in the regulations with nothing specific being said in the Measure itself.

That is the case for the Amendment as it stands. As a second best, I would be prepared to accept—though, as I say, I do not like it—an undertaking that this matter will be specifically and expressly dealt with by regulations which the Minister will already have power to make in the Bill as it stands. But I hope that he will feel able—if not now, perhaps in another place—to see something specifically and expressly put in the Bill itself.

Mr. Goronwy Roberts

When this matter was raised in Committee, I said that it would be possible to provide in the regulations for a complaints section in the official log. The hon. Gentleman now asks for an undertaking for precisely that requirement to be in the regulations. I hesitate to give an undertaking because I would not wish to prejudge the consultations between my Department and all sides of the industry on the question of the possibility of regulations.

My personal view is that as there are arguments against a separate log for complaints and other purposes the official log ought to include, as I said in Committee, a log within a log. A complaints log within the official log would seem to be a very good candidate. I would confidently expect that, in view of the discussion we have had, any regulations under this Clause would do this, but I am unable to give a guarantee that that would be done, even if I were there, or that any successor of mine would feel as I do.

In fairness to the hon. Gentleman, I do not want to fob him off with a second best. Therefore we fall back on the requirement that there should be something in the Statute. This is an important matter—in his view and perhaps in the view of most people, the most important aspect—of what is officially recorded on board, although as soon as one says that certain doubts and queries come to mind; complaints obviously would commend themselves as extremely important to most of us, but there are other things.

The question is whether the hon. Gentleman is content when I say that I am confident that when these regulations are discussed and formulated this will be done. I produced a copy of an official log and brandished it before the Committee, indicating its mechanics which are perhaps better known to some hon. Members. This still seems the right way to do this. Once we start to give priority to certain entries in logs, we may have a proliferation of records, which are best kept together.

I am sorry that I cannot give the undertaking for which the hon. Gentleman asked. I would hope that the extent to which I have been able to go may perhaps induce him to withdraw the Amendment. I know how deeply he feels about this matter, and I share his views and feelings about it, but I remain of the view that the mechanics of the Amendment are already covered by the Bill. I hope that the hon. Gentleman on reflection may agree to let the Clause go forward as it is.

Mr. Patrick Jenkin

I thank the right hon. Gentleman. He has not gone so far as I asked him to go but perhaps as far as he could go under the terms of reference he imposed on himself and his obligation to consult on all these matters with the people in the industry. The peg on which I hang all this is the proposition that it is the duty of the master of a ship to uphold the English law, or Scottish law as the case may be, wherever that ship may be, unless it is in the territorial waters of another country, in which case it is within the jurisdiction of that country's courts. That high-sounding principle comes down to the act of recording complaints about criminal offences in the log.

I am much more concerned about the nature of matters which are required to go into the log, whether it is a separate log or not. That is a matter of mechanics, but somewhere in the Bill preferably or in regulations if need be there should be a specific obligation on the master to record in the logs. I read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in Committee and I interpreted it as also accepting that proposition. I hope that he will use his best endeavours to see that this is put in. It is of considerable importance to those who have the best interests of the rule of law at sea at heart who have advised me that there have been occasions when this has fallen below the usual high standards because there was no specific obligation to record.

I do not think I should labour the matter more and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.