§ 3.33 p.m.
§ Mr. Ian MacArthur (Perth and East Perthshire)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to restore the right to local authorities in Scotland to charge fees for education.The need for my proposed Bill springs from the Education (Scotland) Act, 1969. which, in August this year, will extinguish the right of local authorities in Scotland to charge fees in certain of their schools. I should emphasise that it is local authority schools which are affected. There are 12 of these schools, representing 18 primary and secondary departments, with between 11,000 and 12,000 pupils. All these schools are in Edinburgh and Glasgow and, among many famous schools, they include the Glasgow High School and the Royal High School in Edinburgh.The elected representatives of those two great cities wish to retain their right to charge fees. My Bill would restore that right to them. These local authority fee-paying schools have a unique rôle in the Scottish educational structure and, indeed, in that of the United Kingdom as a whole. They are not comparable with the local authority fee-paying schools which used to exist in England, because in these two cities they alone provide a middle sector of education.
In England, the direct grant schools are required to provide a number of places free. No such obligation rests on the grant-aided schools in Scotland. It is the local authority fee-paying schools in Edinburgh and Glasgow which provide this middle sector, partly by charging fees, which are small, and, to a lesser extent, by providing places free. The highest fees are charged in Glasgow, where they have amounted to a little over £40 a year—the price of about three packets of cigarettes a week.
But the Government's assault on these schools is not inspired only by a dislike of the fees which they charge even on this modest scale. Their main objection is that the schools are selective. At both the primary and secondary stages children are selected by educational merit. The result has been that these schools rightly 257 enjoy a distinguished reputation for academic excellence, but, because the Government believe that selectivity in education is a sin, they propose to suppress the very qualities which have produced this excellence.
First, fee paying, even on this very modest scale, is to be abolished; and, secondly, it is clear that the local authorities will be forced to turn these schools into territorial comprehensive schools, a rôle for which they are totally unsuitable. Some of the finest schools in Scotland are to be destroyed. I know that my hon. Friends will join me in supporting the local authorities which have refused to bend meekly to the Government's will.
My proposed Bill defends two principles which are now under attack in Scotland and which will soon be assaulted in England, also. The first principle is the belief that freedom of choice in education must be preserved. These schools contribute to that freedom by making a middle sector of education available to children of merit. What the so-called egalitarians on the benches opposite are doing is removing choice, not from the rich who can afford to look elsewhere but from poorer parents who cannot afford the scale of fees charged in the grant-aided and independent schools. Theirs will be Hobson's choice if the Government have their way.
The second principle is the right which elected local authorities should have to shape the pattern of education in their own areas. The Government have a shabby record in this regard in Scotland. First, they pretended to consult the local authorities. When they found that Edinburgh and Glasgow would not bow to their will, the masquerade was changed. Instead, these two cities were faced with the reality of compulsion. The 1969 Act gave the Government statutory power to override and crush the wishes of these democratically elected local authorities.
Those two principles will be protected if my proposed Bill is successful. If it fails, the next Government, a Conservative Government, will restore to the Scottish local authorities the right to charge fees if they wish to do so. What is certain is that in one way or the other my hon. Friends and I are determined to save these fine schools and protect the 258 great contribution which they have made to the variety and distinction of education in Scotland.
§ 3.40 p.m.
§ Mr. Donald Dewar (Aberdeen, South)It is only a few months since this House concluded an exhaustive and at times exhausting discussion of the principle of fee-paying in education authority schools in Scotland. I hope that the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) will not think me ungracious if I say that nothing in his speech has tempted me to think that the House should reconsider the decision then taken.
We are being invited today to perpetuate what I believe to be a startling educational anomaly, to preserve a privileged enclave within the public sector, to allow a small group of schools to retain entry based upon selection which is rigorous but not necessarily efficient and to charge fees the only justification for which must be the buttressing of social status.
What I find frightening is the certainty with which hon. Members opposite assume that these schools have a unique claim to be preserved as they presently operate, the idea that in an absolute sense these schools are the best, the widespread feeling that their pupil is a superior product, which is the basis on which I fear that many people support the belief that there are two nations in the educational world of Scotland and that those who do not manage to gain entry to the selected few schools carry the stigma of failure.
I believe that these schools are, and must be by definition, divisive, not just because of the values and attitudes which, on occasion, they display, but because their method of selection is bound to favour those who come from an intellectually aware and educationally ambitious background. Although it is very fine to talk about a system of choice, in the circumstances we face it becomes merely an empty slogan. Many people looking at the barriers, which through no fault of their own remain in their path must look at it as a laughably inaccurate abstraction or at best a piece of naive optimism. Even if the social basis of these schools were broadened and they were turned into an efficient meritocracy, I would be opposed to the Bill.
259 It is not possible to reconcile with comprehensive reorganisation the principle of selection on which these schools work. They set out to cream off the pupil, or at least the willing pupil. They give an opportunity for parents to opt out of the State sector, parents whose dedicated energies and enthusiasms could do much to raise standards. They destroy, almost by definition, the social and educational mix which should be the hallmark of a comprehensive school. We are being asked to encourage the survival of an elite within the State system, and all the honest enthusiasm—and I accept that it is honest—for established tradition does not disguise that fact.
Whatever may or may not be permissible in the private sector, it is quite wrong for the public purpose to support and supply privilege for the few. It seems to me that the principles of these schools stand against everything which our State system is striving to achieve.
| Division No. 45.] | AYES | [3.45 p.m. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Fry, Peter | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Glover, Sir Douglas | Nabarro, Sir Gerald |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Neave, Airey |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Goodhew, Victor | Nicholls, Sir Harmar |
| Batsford, Brian | Gower, Raymond | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Beamish, Col, Sir Tufton | Grant, Anthony | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Gresham Cooke, R. | Peel, John |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Peyton, John |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Gurden, Harold | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Pym, Francis |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Brewis, John | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Llonel | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Hiley, Joseph | Royle, Anthony |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. Sir Walter | Hill, J. E. B. | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M) | Holland, Philip | Sharpies, Richard |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hornby, Richard | Speed, Keith |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Campbell, Cordon (Moray & Nairn) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Tapsell, Peter |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Jopling, Michael | Temple, John M. |
| Clegg, Walter | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Tilney, John |
| Cooke, Robert | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. | |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kirk, Peter | Waddington, David |
| Costain, A. P. | Kitson, Timothy | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Lane, David | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Dance, James | Longden, Gilbert | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | McMaster, Stanley | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Doughty, Charles | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Maginnis, John E. | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Marten, Neil | Wolridge-Gordon, Patrick |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Mawby, Ray | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Wright, Esmond |
| Emery, Peter | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Wylie, N. R. |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Eyre, Reginald | Miscampbell, Norman | |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Monro, Hector | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Farr, John | Montgomery, Fergus | Mr. MacArthur and |
| Fortescue, Tim | More, Jasper | Mr. Edward M. Taylor. |
§ It is the duty of the House to look to the interests of the majority who have no opportunity to enjoy the advantages which it is now sought to save for a small group of children. I believe that the fee-paying principle and all it stands for bolsters and buttresses and does not destroy social divisions. I believe that it endangers and obstructs educational progress. For all these reasons I think that the Government were right to abolish fee-paying in the 1969 Act, and that it is right to oppose the Bill, not on a basis of pique or jealousy, but because it is necessary in the cause of Scottish education.
§ I hope that the hon. Member will not he granted by the House the leave which he now seeks.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 127, Noes 205.
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Gregory, Arnold | Molloy, William |
| Albu, Austen | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Alldritt, Walter | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Murray, Albert |
| Archer, Peter (R'wley Regis & Tipt'n) | Hamling, William | Neal, Harold |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Hannan, William | Newens, Stan |
| Ashley, Jack | Harper, Joseph | Ogden, Eric |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Haseldine, Norman | O'Malley, Brian |
| Barnes, Michael | Hazell, Bert | Oram, Albert E. |
| Barnett, Joel | Heffer, Eric S. | Orme, Stanley |
| Benn, Rt. Kn. Anthony Wedgwood | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Oswald, Thomas |
| Bessell, Peter | Hobden, Dennis | Paget, R. T. |
| Binns, John | Hooley, Frank | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Blackburn, F. | Hooson, Emlyn | Pardoe, John |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Horner, John | Park, Trevor |
| Booth, Albert | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Boston, Terence | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Buchan, Norman | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hunter, Adam | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Chapman, Donald | Hynd, John | Price, Thomas (Westhoughson) |
| Coe, Denis | Janner, Sir Barnett | Probert, Arthur |
| Coleman, Donald | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Rankin, John |
| Concannon, J. D, | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Conlan, Bernard | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kennethv. St. P'c'as) |
| Dalycll, Tarn | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Rowlands, E. |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Kelley, Richard | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Sheldon, Robert |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Latham, Arthur | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Dempsey, James | Lawler, Wallace | Silverman, Julius |
| Dewar, Donald | Lawson, George | Snow, Julian |
| Dickens, James | Ledger, Ron | Spriggs, Leslle |
| Dobson, Ray | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Doig, Peter | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Dunn, James A. | Lipton, Marcus | Symonds, J. B. |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lomas, Kenneth | Taverne, Dick |
| Eadie, Alex | Loughlin, Charles | Thornton, Ernest |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lubbock, Eric | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Ellis, John | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Tinn, James |
| English, Michael | McBride, Neil | Tomney. Frank |
| Ennals, David | McCann, John | Tuck, Raphael |
| Ensor, David | MacColl, James | Varley, Erie G. |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Macdonald, A. H. | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) | McGuire, Michael | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Wallace, George | |
| Ewing, Mrs. Winifred | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Faulds, Andrew | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Weitzman, David |
| Finch, Harold | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Whitlock, William |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | McNamara, J. Kevin | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Manuel, Archie | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Ford, Ben | Mapp, Charles | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Forrester, John | Marks, Kenneth | Winnick, David |
| Fowler, Gerry | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mendelson, John | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mikardo, Ian | Woof, Robert |
| Gardner, Tony | Millan, Bruce | |
| Garrett, W. E. | Miller, Dr. M. S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Ginsburg, David | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Mr. Robert Maclennan and |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Mr. William Small. |