HC Deb 20 January 1970 vol 794 cc247-9
Q1. Mr. C. Pannell

asked the Prime Minister whether he will give consideration to the commissioning of another statue in the Members' Lobby of the late David Lloyd George which would symbolise historically his proper comparison with the late Winston Churchill.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)

I would prefer to wait until we have some clearer indication of the range and depth of feeling on this matter both in the House and elsewhere before reaching a conclusion.

Mr. Pannell

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I did not put down this Question until several hon. Members on both sides of the House had spoken to me on the subject, so that he need not misunderstand the feeling? Is my right hon. Friend aware—in fact, I know that he is —that the last speech made in this House by Sir Winston Churchill was on the proposal to put up a statue to Lloyd George? Sir Winston said—

Mr. Speaker

Order. It is not in order to quote on a supplementary question.

Mr. Pannell

I am aware of that, Mr. Speaker, but as I am only referring to a sentence I hope that you will be indulgent.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Even if the quotation is small, it is out of order.

Mr. Pannell

As a man of action, resource and creative energy, he stood, when at his zenith, without rival". Those were the words of Sir Winston Churchill. Does my right hon. Friend accept that what has emerged now is a caricature? Indeed, the scene is like that of a man and boy in the Lobby. Will my right hon. Friend take the view of Lloyd George's—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Supplementary questions must be reasonably brief.

Mr. Pannell

I am aware of that, Mr. Speaker, but this is a curious Question. I ask for the indulgence that you have extended to hon. Members less experienced than I. Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is considerable feeling here that the thing represents a caricature and historically is not a complete symbol of the respective places of these two great men in history?

The Prime Minister

All those right hon. and hon. Members present will recall that speech made by Sir Winston Churchill to which my right hon. Friend referred tangentially. I have heard a number of different views expressed about the feelings in the House, and I think that that is the general experience of right hon. and hon. Members. I think that a little more time is needed. Right hon. and hon. Members are not usually over-slow in becoming articulate on any matter on which they feel strongly regarding the House itself and its surroundings.

When there has been an opportunity for right hon. and hon. Members to consider this matter and discuss it, no doubt my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be prepared to find time for a short debate so that the views of right hon. and hon. Members can be expressed.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the Prime Minister aware that the House will be grateful to him for saying that he will give sympathetic consideration to the views which will be expressed on this matter? Is he further aware that certainly every surviving member of the Lloyd George family, particularly his one surviving child, believes that this statue is neither worthy of him nor worthy of the House of Commons? There would be widespread support for a statue which was a worthy companion to the very fine statue of Sir Winston Churchill, so that we could suitably commemorate both the war leaders of this century.

The Prime Minister

The right hon. Gentleman has put an individual point of view, and others will be expressed on the matter when it is considered further. My impression was that there was concern in the Lloyd George family about an original proposal to move the Lloyd George statue as part of the rearrangement, and when that did not occur I thought there was rather more acceptance of the position. If the right hon. Gentleman has more up-to-date information, no doubt he will express that at the appropriate time. Others may express different views.

Mr. Shinwell

Is my right hon. Friend aware that no one regards the Lloyd George statue as satisfactory and that there is no need for a debate at all? Surely he could collect the voices and decide whether it is worth proceeding with the suggestion? At the same time, would he consider removing some of those abominable marble statues in the Members Lobby that should never have been placed there?

The Prime Minister

The House knows how much my right hon. Friend has contributed in this matter as Chairman of the Committee which was responsible for producing—and I do not think anyone has contested this—a remarkable and memorable statue of Sir Winston Churchill. That is not at issue today. It is right that whatever views my right hon. Friend has, other hon. Members may have different views. We must leave time for these views to become articulate. Whether we collect voices, however that may be done, or have a debate must be a matter for the House and the strength of feeling of hon. Members.

Sir R. Cary

May I ask the Prime Minister to resist the suggestion contained in the Question? I remember the late David Lloyd George in this House in the 1930's. The statue in the Lobby is an adequate representation of his splendid being. With regard to Sir Winston Churchill, the statue is familiar to all hon. Members in the aggressive significance of the head and shoulders. I invite the Prime Minister to leave well alone.

The Prime Minister

That is another view, and in view of the hon. Member's seniority in this House I think we must treat it with deep respect. All hon. Members should have the opportunity to express a view if there is strong feeling about it. Let us consider whether action is needed. In any case there ought to be no consideration of action before the House has had a chance to express itself as a whole.