HC Deb 13 February 1970 vol 795 cc1599-601

11.10 a.m.

Mr. Speaker

Yesterday the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) complained in the House of the procedure by which a Petition from the Director of Public Prosecutions was presented to the House and which was followed by a Motion giving leave to certain Clerks to give evidence in the courts and to produce there certain Committee documents.

As this complaint was raised as a matter affecting the privileges of the House, I asked for the usual time to consider the hon. Member's submission.

It is true that the House enjoys full protection under the Bill of Rights for proceedings in Parliament, and these proceedings, which undoubtedly cover the proceedings of Select Committees appointed by the House, ought not to be called in question in any court or place outside Parliament. At the same time, the House has long had regard to the rights and duties of other courts outside this High Court of Parliament, and when an occasion arises, as it did in this case, when its proceedings are relevant to the work of another court, the House has been ready to entertain a Petition for evidence to be given and for its proceedings to be produced.

The Petition of the Director of Public Prosecutions, which was presented by the Attorney-General and read by the Clerk at the Table, was wholly in accord with the usual rules of the House, and indeed, had it not been so, Mr. Speaker would not have allowed it to be presented.

Following its presentation, a Motion was moved, without notice, but again entirely in accordance with the long- established practice of the House, for leave to be given to enable Committee documents to be produced in court supported by the evidence of certain Clerks. The Motion for this purpose was moved by Mr. Attorney-General, who made an explanation of the circumstances, and the House agreed. If any Member had objected to the Motion, debate upon it could have taken place on any subsequent day. There being no objection, however, the Motion was agreed to in the usual way.

I am afraid that it would not be proper for the Chair to say anything further on the merits of the submission made by the hon. Member. All I have to rule now is whether he has established a prima facie case of breach of privilege which would entitle the matter to be given priority over the Orders of the Day. After giving very full consideration to all that he said yesterday, I have to rule that he has not established a prima facie case of breach of privilege and, consequently, the matter cannot be proceeded with now. This does not prevent the hon. Gentleman putting down a Motion if he so desires.

Mr. Sheldon

Following your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, which of course I fully accept, would it not be right that the Procedure Committee be asked to look into this question of which matters can be raised without previous notice?

Mr. Speaker

There is no reason why not. The hon. Member may raise that issue with the Procedure Committee if he so desires.

Mr. S. C. Silkin

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Arising out of the matters on which you have given a Ruling to the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), in the course of his observations to the House yesterday, used the words: …so that we will not be in fear of Clerks carrying tales to various bodies because we treat them as close colleagues of ours."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1970; Vol. 795, c. 1461.] The point of order which I wish to raise is whether it is in order for an hon. Member to make a reflection upon a much respected and senior Clerk of the House. It may well be, and indeed I hope it is, the case that my hon. Friend's remarks were meant in a general sense and not in relation to the particular Clerk who is involved in this matter. If that be so, Mr. Speaker, no doubt he will so inform the House and save you the trouble of ruling upon my point of order.

But what is quite clear from the statement that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General made on Wednesday is that the Clerk concerned is being required to produce documents and give evidence in relation to them in the courts, and that there is no question whatever, so far as I or the House know, of his carrying tales to various bodies, as might be thought from the remarks made by my hon. Friend.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman, if I may say so, is drifting into the matter itself on which I have ruled.

On the very narrow issue that he has raised, as to whether the hon. Gentleman was reflecting on two officials of the House, I think that he can have an assurance from the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Sheldon

I find it astonishing that anybody would think, in the context of my remarks yesterday, that I was critical of any of the Clerks of the House. I was pointing out, indeed, what close colleagues they are and what the relationship between us meant to us. I was in fear of this very close and what I consider to be important relationship being disturbed. I thought that I was casting credit upon the integrity of the Clerks.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot debate the issue now. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise the matter he must put down a Motion. All I have decided by my prima facie Ruling is that the matter cannot take precedence over the Orders of the Day.