§ 21. Mr. Kenneth Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what estimate has been made by the Government Actuary of the proportion of occupational pension schemes likely to be wound up as a result of the implementation of the National Superannuation and Social Insurance Bill in April, 1972.
§ Mr. CrossmanThe Government Actuary has advised that no realistic estimate is possible at this stage.
§ Mr. BakerWould not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the major objection to his scheme is that the level of average earnings plus a half is too high a ceiling, since employers with staff earning £40 a week or less would tend to let the State provide the pensions and for staff at £40 a week or more would tend to provide pensions by private insurance policies and top-hat schemes? This would lead to a running-down of many small private pension schemes.
§ Mr. CrossmanI think it is true that the employers are likely to be influenced by the ceiling. We discussed this at length with the C.B.I. but, if my memory is right, they made no kind of objection. I asked them about the ceiling and they made no objection about its being at that level.
§ Mr. DeanDoes the right hon. Gentleman realise that the National Association of Pension Funds estimates that anything 893 up to 15,000 schemes with 500,000 members will have to fold up if his scheme goes through? How does he think it will be possible for the scheme to cover those whose needs are greatest?
§ Mr. CrossmanI am aware that Mr. Michael Pilch headed a study group which made what was described as an informed guess. We have not been told on what it was it based its figures. I doubt whether it is based on very firm evidence.