HC Deb 09 February 1970 vol 795 cc886-7
13. Dame Irene Ward

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now make a statement on the nurses' pay claim; and whether it is now intended to pay the 22 per cent. in 1970.

16. Mr. Biffen

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the latest position in the negotiations concerning the pay of nurses.

37. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the estimated cost of implementing in full the recent Whitley Council proposals on nurses' pay; and what representations he has received on the desirability of giving the full increase this year.

Mr. Crossman

Negotiations are to be resumed tomorrow on the offer made of increases in 1970 and 1971 which together would cost about £65 million. In addition to representations in the House by hon. Members, I have received some letters suggesting that the rates proposed for 1971 should be paid in 1970.

Dame Irene Ward

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is really rather disappointing since everyone was expecting an announcement from his Department supporting the nurses? May we have an assurance that the advice being given to the management side on the Whitley Council is in accord with what this House—this is very important—and the nurses have put forward? Is he aware that we have never been able to find out what advice has been tendered to the management side by the Department, which makes a nonsense of the National Whitley Council?

Mr. Crossman

I should not have thought it wise for the hon. Lady to press for a revelation to the House of what is going on on the management side in the middle of negotiations. What I would say is that it has been widely accepted in all parts of the country that the offer was an extremely reasonable one and I am very much hoping for a settlement.

Mr. Biffen

Is there not ample evidence of the very considerable use which is now being made in the National Health Services of part-time nurses, and does this not underline the necessity of having a salary structure which will provide a better career for those who undertake nursing full time?

Mr. Crossman

I would entirely agree with those observations.

Mr. Rose

Would my right hon. Friend agree that, although this is the most generous offer yet made to the nurses, it will still only keep them marking time with the industrial workers? Would he look particularly into the problem of those nurses who undertake specialised courses such as midwifery, and who thereby lose their increment?

Mr. Crossman

I will certainly take note of what my hon. Friend says in the second part of his supplementary question. On the first point, I would seriously question his remark that this enables the nurses only to mark time. This is a very generous offer indeed, which would give them the full improvement not only in the amount of their pay but in their status, which they have desired.

Mr. Maurice Macmillan

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that, even if the nurses' claims were fully met, it would take a fully-qualified staff nurse about three years even to get up to the present annual average wage? Will he not see that what was said by his hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State in the debate is a much better basis for his advice to the Whitley Council, that present rates of pay are quite inadequate to maintain recruitment? Since the difference between the management side and staff side is so very small, can he not be a little more forthcoming to the House this afternoon?

Mr. Crossman

No, I do not think that I can be any more forthcoming to the House, because the negotiations are to start again tomorrow.