§ 12. Mr. William Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales, in view of the growth of private forests at the expense of Forestry Commission and hill farming in Wales, and of his rejection of a Rural Development Board, what safeguards he proposes to provide to put farmers in Wales in the same position in relation to forestry extension as the farmers in the Pennines Development Board area.
§ Mr. Gibson-WattNone. I believe that both State and private forestry have a part to play in the development of Wales. I do not accept that this need to be at the expense of hill farmers or of the Forestry Commission, which is making steady progress in acquiring and planting land in Wales.
§ Mr. EdwardsIs the hon. Gentleman not aware that, despite some uncertainty about the Rural Development Board's proposals as regards farm units in Mid-Wales, the protection given to farm holdings from the activities of the Economic Forestry Group was a welcome feature, since the group is allowed to take farming land without the restrictions which are put on the Forestry Commission? Is his only answer to amalgamate all farms of up to 100 acres, which takes in 75 per cent. of all farm holdings?
§ Mr. Gibson-WattI am surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman talking like that. Many people in Wales thought that the Rural Development Board was a foresters' charter and would strengthen the arm of forestry. I cannot accept what he says in the second part of his Question.
§ Mr. HoosonIs the Minister not aware of the great concern in rural Wales about the amount of land taken over by private forestry? Is there not a case for subjecting private forestry interests to the same control as that applied to the Forestry Commission, namely, the county agricultural executive committee? Is he further aware that the death duty relief, originally intended to help good landlordism, is now used for dodging death duties?
§ Mr. Gibson-WattThe latter part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's supplementry question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On the question of private versus State planting, the hon. and learned Gentleman should be aware that the amount of planting last year was roughly the same on both sides, and as far as I am concerned forestry of both sorts is good for the economy of Wales.
§ 13. Mr. Gwynoro Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many farms have been taken up in Wales by the Forestry Commission and private forestry groups in the last 12 months; and how many will be taken out of agriculture in the course of the next five years.
§ Mr. Gibson-WattIn the year ended 30th September, 1970, the Forestry Commission acquired six whole farms and parts of 19 farms in Wales. I have no comparable information about acquisitions by private forestry groups, nor can I forecast the number of farms which 929 may be acquired for forestry in the next five years.
§ Mr. JonesWith regard to that disgraceful reply regarding private foresters, in that the Government are not aware of the number of farms taken up, and the reply the Secretary of State gave to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) regarding the effect on the Forestry Commission, does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is not the acreage as between the Forestry Commission and the private foresters which matters but the number employed now by the Forestry Commission compared with 10 years ago? This has been the result of depopulation in the rural areas.
§ Mr. Gibson-WattThe hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is extremely difficult to answer because it is so extremely difficult to follow. I say to him again that the Forestry Commission in the year ended 30th September acquired six whole farms and parts of 19 farms in Wales.