European Economic Community (Hansard, 7 December 1970)

§ 3. Mr. Turton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will now publish a White Paper on the effect on the constitutional position of the British Parliament of Great Britain's accession to the Treaty of Rome.

§ The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon)
No, Sir. Consideration was given to this in the White Paper "Legal and Constitutional Implications of United Kingdom Membership of the European Communities" (Cmnd. 3301) published in May 1967.

§ Mr. Turton
That White Paper is now out of date and incomplete. Will my right hon. and learned Friend reconsider this and publish a list of all the Acts 4 that require amendment and Statutes which must be introduced in the unlikely event of Britain entering the Common Market? What would be the alterations in parliamentary machinery for this purpose?

§ Mr. Rippon
At this stage of our negotiations the information given in the White Paper is adequate. No doubt at a later stage it may be necessary to provide more.

§ Mr. Arthur Lewis
Is the Minister aware that two minutes ago I was refused a Question by the Table on the ground that it referred to what the previous Administration had done and that I cannot ask the present Government to be responsible for what the previous Administration did? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] How can the Government try to fall back on the decision taken in 1967, as the House of Commons has never had an opportunity of passing any opinion on the matter?

§ Mr. Rippon
As far as I can recall, there were debates in the last Parliament which were very helpful.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
Since my right hon. and learned Friend referred specifically, in his Answer to my right hon. Friend's Question, to the White Paper of 1967, can he say why he gave instructions for the transfer of my Question on that White Paper to the Attorney-General? Is it because this is such a hot potato that every Minister wants to pass it on to another?

§ Mr. Rippon
I do not quite know in which circumstances my right hon. and learned Friend's Question was transferred. As he will appreciate, the Attorney-General is responsible to this House for questions relating to constitutional matters.

§ 4. Mr. Crouch
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of negotiations to join the European Economic Community.

§ 18. Mr. Hayhoe
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is satisfied with the progress to date of negotiations to join the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.

§ 23. Mr. Blaker
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement about the progress of negotiations for Great Britain to join the European Economic Community.

§ 29. Mr. St. John-Stevas
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the present state of the negotiations for Great Britain to join the European Economic Community.

§ 39. Mr. Marten
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the latest position in the Common Market negotiations.

§ Mr. Rippon
At present I have nothing to add to what I told the House on 25th November. I would hope, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, and with that of the House, to make a further statement on the progress of the negotiations after the next Ministerial meetings which take place tomorrow. I am satisfied that all parties are making efforts to see that the negotiations are concluded as soon as possible.—[Vol. 807, c. 431.]

§ Mr. Crouch
Can my right hon. and learned Friend make any statement on progress which may have been made on the time factors for Britain's entry into the Common Market, if that is to take place? We have heard mention of five and seven years.

§ Mr. Rippon
Not at this stage.

§ Mr. Hayhoe
Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that there is absolutely no connection between the decision taken in the House last week on the question of British Summer Time and Greenwich Mean Time and the question of applying to join the Common Market?

§ Mr. Rippon
Yes. I assure my hon. Friend that I was entirely in favour of the Motion which was carried by such a large majority last week.

§ Mr. Blaker
While wishing my right hon. and learned Friend well in tomorrow's meeting, may I ask him whether he agrees that if we were already in the Common Market it would be a good deal easier for Europe to exert influence on the United States against restrictive trade measures?

§ Mr. Rippon
I am sure that that would be so. The Community has made representations to the United States on this subject. I have no doubt that an enlarged Community would adopt outward-looking and liberal policies.

§ Mr. Marten
May I remind my right hon. and learned Friend of the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 5th May that enlargement of the Community should not take place without the wholehearted consent of the British people? In view of the latest opinion poll, which shows that only 16 per cent. of the people are in favour of Britain applying to join the Common Market, how do the Government propose to obtain the wholehearted consent of the British people to this country joining the Common Market?

§ Mr. Rippon
If the outcome of the negotiations is, in the Government's view, successful, they will have to put the position to Parliament.

§ Sir G. de Freitas
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman, when making statements, take every appropriate opportunity to remind the public that besides the civil servants in Brussels there are the Council of Ministers and a potentially important democratic institution in the European Parliament in Strasbourg?

§ Mr. Rippon
That is certainly so.

§ Mr. Jay
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman is conducting the negotiations, can he say whether the Government support the proposals for currency union and rigidly fixed exchange rates which the Community has taken as its objective?

§ Mr. Rippon
There are later Questions on the Order Paper on that subject. I take exactly the same view as that taken by the previous Administration.

§ 5. Mr. Crouch
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what dates have been fixed for the Ministerial meetings between Great Britain and the European Economic Community between now and the end of 1970.

§ Mr. Rippon
There will be one further ministerial meeting this year, on 8th December, and a meeting at the level of Deputies on 18th December.

§ 9. Mr. Barnes
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a Ministerial broadcast on television about the progress of the negotiations for Great Britain to enter the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
I have no plans to do so at present.
As I have said, my first objective is to keep the House, and through it the Press and public informed of the progress of the negotiations.

§ Mr. Barnes
In view of the apparent state of public opinion on this matter, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that the time has come for the Government to give more of a lead? Is it not very odd that, on the one hand, the negotiations should be going very well, but, on the other hand—[Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh, but some of us returned at the end of last week from Brussels where we spoke to people in the Commission. This is the impression which we got.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman must not interrupt himself.

§ Mr. Barnes
I did not make the first interruption, Mr. Speaker.
Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that it is unsatisfactory that he apparently should be doing very well in Brussels but that the rest of his colleagues should be making so little attempt in this country to carry public opinion with them?

§ Mr. Rippon
I do not accept that criticism of my colleagues. A great deal of information is being presented on all aspects of the negotiations. One difficulty is that there are people who do not care what may be the result of the negotiations, but those of us who are concerned that they should be successful must, to some extent, await their outcome and deal with matters as they arise.

§ Mr. Healey
As the level of the financial contribution to be made by Her Majesty's Government in the event of our joining the Common Market is probably the most critical single issue, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman propose to explain the Government's view on this matter to the Ministerial meeting this week?

§ Mr. Rippon
I do not think that I can anticipate what I shall say tomorrow or what will be the outcome of the discussions. I shall certainly make a statement to the House thereafter.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall from his own forensic experience that some cases are so weak that even the most persuasive and skilled advocacy cannot make them appear other than they are? Is that perhaps the very proper and prudent reason underlying my right hon. and learned Friend's refusal to go on television, as suggested in the Question?

§ Mr. Rippon
Although I have frequently heard my right hon. and learned Friend do exactly that, I can assure him that that is not so in this case.

§ Mr. Alfred Morris
Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman seen the report by Peterborough in the Daily Telegraph this morning that he will be warmly welcomed in Brussels tomorrow because of the Government's introduction of their wretched Industrial Relations Bill? If he makes a Ministerial broadcast, will he tell our associates in Western Europe that they must not interfere in British affairs?

§ Mr. Rippon
I am quite sure that there will be no interference by the Community in the passage of the Government's Industrial Relations Bill.

§ 14. Mr. Shore
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with Commonwealth countries on the effect on their trade with Great Britain of the Common External Tariff should Great Britain join the Common Market; and whether he will make a statement.

§ Mr. Rippon
I have had discussions with a large number of Commonwealth countries on the effect on their trade if Britain joins the European Communities.

§ Mr. Shore
Surely the Chancellor of the Duchy can confirm that the trade of Commonwealth countries to Britain is still greater than it is with the whole of the Six put together? In view of the fact that they would suffer a double blow through the loss of Commonwealth preferences on top of the imposition of 9 common external tariff, surely he has proposals himself to put to the European countries in order to safeguard vital Commonwealth interests?

§ Mr. Rippon
Of course we have put proposals to the Community to safeguard vital Commonwealth interests. Of course Commonwealth trade is of great importance to this country. What we believe is that if negotiations can be concluded on satisfactory terms, a strong Britain within the enlarged Community will bring great trading benefits to the Commonwealth.

§ Mr. Moyle
Would the Chancellor not agree that the acceptance of the common external tariff and its implications will mean that we shall lose customers outside this country, so that we should have a smaller market after entry than we have now?

§ Mr. Rippon
Experience has not shown that to be necessarily the case. Commonwealth trade with the Community has increased very considerably in recent years.

§ 15. Mr. Shore
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Six on their proposals for an Economic and Monetary Union; and whether he will make a statement.

§ Mr. Rippon
Economic and monetary union is not one of the subjects being discussed in the negotiations for Britain's entry into the European Communities. They are, of course, matters of general interest being discussed by the Six in the light of the Werner Report. Like the last Government, we have welcomed the moves which the Community has already made towards closer economic and monetary integration.

§ Mr. Shore
Surely the Chancellor of the Duchy must accept that that is an extraordinary and very unsatisfactory reply? It is no good at all saying, "We are doing the same as the last Government", when the last Government had no possibility of considering the Werner Report which was not even completed or published until October this year. Will he please make it plain to the House why he does not include this in the substance of the negotiations and why he will not 10 make it clear how Britain stands on this crucial question of fixed exchange rates?

§ Mr. Rippon
These are not matters for discussion in the negotiations. We may have a part to play in general discussions beforehand about monetary co-operation, and if the negotiations are successful and we are members, then certainly we shall have a great deal to say. But nothing will prejudice our decision. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Leader of the Opposition, when he was Prime Minister, on 10th February, 1970, had a great deal to say about this matter, and said, I think, that he thought that nothing but good could come from closer cooperation within an enlarged Community on financial matters; and that is all that is being proposed at this stage. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that he was a member of the Cabinet at that time. We are conducting negotiations on the very basis that his own Government put forward.

§ Mr. Body
Having read the Werner Report, may I ask whether my right hon. and learned Friend agrees with the logic of it, and, in particular, does he accept the consequences of the economic and monetary reform of the union clearly set out in the Werner Report?

§ Mr. Rippon
All I accept is that there is nothing to cause us concern in the first stage of the Werner Report calling for a measure of co-operation in these matters. The second stage would not arise as far as we are concerned till we were members of the Community. We would then express our views. The third stage is fairly far in the future and would require amendments of the Treaty of Rome. Certainly nothing could happen in regard to these matters which could be decided without our point of view being expressed.

§ Mr. Raphael Tuck
Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman give a clear answer? Do the Government favour or disfavour the proposed Federal decision centre which would rob Britain entirely of her national independence?

§ Mr. Rippon
I do not accept in any way the premises on which that question is framed.

§ Mr. Blaker
Is it not becoming clear that progress on the lines foreshadowed 11 in the Werner Report is likely to be pretty cautious?

§ Mr. Rippon
All the experience of the Community throughout its history is that it adopts a cautious and pragmatic approach on these matters. There is a good deal of monetary and economic cooperation at the present time, and it must be in our interest to see that it continues.

§ 19. Mr. Hayhoe
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to visit Bonn for discussions with Herr Scheel about the British application for membership of the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
Neither I nor my right hon. Friend have any immediate plan to visit Bonn for discussions with Herr Scheel. I will, however, be meeting Herr Scheel at tomorrow's Ministerial meeting in Brussels.

§ Mr. Hayhoe
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, whatever differences may exist between the major German political parties on the question of ostpolitik, there is a very wide measure of unanimity across all political opinion in Germany on the advantages of our application succeeding?

§ Mr. Rippon
I am sure that that is so, I am sure that if the negotiations can succeed there will be mutual benefit to both countries and to the whole Community.

§ Mr. Hattersley
The Chancellor of the Duchy will have heard the Foreign Secretary express disapproval of our interference with other countries' policies. When he meets the German Foreign Minister will he apologise for the episode last Friday when members of his party, including a member of the Cabinet, indulged in criticism of the German Government's ostpolitik?

§ Mr. Rippon
I have no knowledge of these matters.

§ Mr. Orme
Is the Chancellor of the Duchy aware that these negotiations are based on a false prospectus and that the British public is being deceived, in that the terms for which we are negotiating are not the terms and conditions which we shall have to accept within the E.E.C. in 12 view of the Werner Report and the political union discussions now taking place?

§ Mr. Rippon
The public would only be deceived if it accepted the sort of statement which the hon. Gentleman has just made.

§ 20. Mr. Lane
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further steps he will now take to keep the public informed of the progress of the Common Market negotiations.

§ Mr. Rippon
My first duty is to keep the House and through it the Press and public informed on the negotiations. I also try to avail myself of as many opportunities as possible in making public speeches, and I accept a high proportion of the invitations I receive from radio and television channels in this country and abroad.

§ Mr. Lane
In his public speeches and television appearances will my right hon. and learned Friend continue to direct people's attention to the substantial and growing benefits to this country from membership of the Community, not only economic but political?

§ Mr. Rippon
Yes, Sir.

§ Mr. Mayhew
Is the Minister aware that the latest official estimate we have had of the increase in the cost of living consequent on joining the Community is now out of date and pessimistic? Is he aware that this is one of the many objections to joining the Common Market which is being tactfully dropped by those who oppose our joining, and will he therefore publish a White Paper setting out the new facts?

§ Mr. Rippon
Certainly this is a developing process. There has been a great deal of exaggeration of the effect on the cost of living of our joining the Community, and not enough has been said about the increase in the standard of living that should result.

§ 22. Sir A. Meyer
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to visit the French Foreign Minister to discuss the enlargement of the European communities.

§ Mr. Rippon
Neither I nor my right hon. Friend has any specific plans for further bilateral meetings with M. Schumann at this stage. I look forward to seeing him at tomorrow's Ministerial negotiating meeting in Brussels.

§ Sir A. Meyer
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the French Government have found that their effective sovereignty has been in no way diminished by membership of E.E.C. and that, on the contrary, they have been able to exert an increasing influence in the world? Is this not the answer to the claim that to join the Common Market will reduce our influence?

§ Mr. Rippon
This is certainly a fact. It is worth pointing out that, on the whole, the French, like other members of the Community, have exerted a greater influence acting in concert than they could have hoped to exert acting alone.

§ Mr. Marquand
In any discussions which the Minister has with the French Foreign Secretary, will he make it clear that in his view the creation of a Europe-based reserve currency, which might be the ultimate outcome of the proposals in the Werner Report, would be greatly to the advantage of this country and of the world?

§ Mr. Rippon
These are matters not directly arising in the negotiations, and the question is one which would be better put to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I agree with the hon. Gentleman in all these matters. We have a great interest in co-operating and finding appropriate solutions.

§ 38. Mr. Marten
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many members of his Department are engaged whole-time and at what estimated annual cost on the Common Market negotiations.

§ Mr. Rippon
There are 11 members of the Diplomatic Service engaged full-time in the negotiations. A further 11 officers in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and in Brussels provide supporting services for the Delegation which are almost full time. The best estimate I can give of the cost of this staff is approximately £145,000.

§ Mr. Marten
Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether these people 14 work in the Department called the European Integration Department? As the present Government are following on the previous Government's negotiations, and are therefore committed to no centralism and no supranationalism, as stated by the previous Prime Minister on 9th February, 1969, why are we trying to integrate Britain into Europe?

§ Mr. Rippon
There is no particular significance in the title of this section of the Department, as I explained to my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Body) the other day—none at all.

§ Mr. Alfred Morris
Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say, in addition, what is now the annual cost to public funds of giving financial help to organisations working for British membership of the Common Market? Has the amount increased or is it the same?

§ Mr. Rippon
A number of Questions have been asked on the subject, but it does not arise out of this Question.

§ 41. Mr. Turton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will report to the House of Commons on the submissions made by Her Majesty's Government in the course of the negotiations for entry into the European Economic Community, before they are divulged to the Press.

§ Mr. Rippon
The full texts of submissions made by Her Majesty's Government in the course of the negotiations with the European Communities are confidential. I hope, however, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, and with that of the House, to continue my practice of making statements to the House as soon as possible after each Ministerial negotiating meeting.

§ Mr. Turton
But is not my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the Press seem to be getting the information while the House is getting no details at all? Will he adopt the suggestion made by the right hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) that he should publish a White Paper whenever he changes the economic assessment of his predecessors?

§ Mr. Rippon
There must, I suppose, be some limit to the number of White Papers one can publish. I appreciate that a certain difficulty arises out of 15 fairly detailed reports in the Press of what is going on in the course of negotiations. I can promise my right hon. Friend that I will do my best to ensure that the House is kept fully informed, and that the information given to the House will be the authoritative statement. I cannot negotiate on the basis of leaks of documents that have not been handed over to me.

§ Mr. Maclennan
While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for the information he has already given to the House about a common fisheries policy, may I ask whether he can say in what form his statements will be made at a later date, and what prospects he may see about coming to some agreement on a separate protocol?

§ Mr. Rippon
We have made our position clear about the fisheries agreement. We regretted the circumstances in which it was brought forward whilst negotiations were going on, but we have accepted that it was coincidental and that it applies only to the fishery policies of the Six, and we have reserved our position. I do not think that I can say any more at this stage.

§ 43. Mr. Pavitt
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will reconstitute the consultative committee between Government and representative bodies on entry into the Common Market; and if, in addition to reappointing the Cooperative Union, he will invite representation from other bodies serving consumers' interests like the Consumer's Association.

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir. I consider that present channels of consultation with outside representative bodies are adequate.

§ Mr. Pavitt
Did it just fade away or was it wound up? Were its members ever thanked for their services? Has it disappeared without trace? As the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not prepared to consult the rest of the country in any other way, will he reestablish this body so that at least he can receive advice from quarters other than those from which he is receiving it at the moment?

§ Mr. Rippon
It is true that this body disappeared almost without trace. It was set up and first met in December, 1966. It had four meetings between December, 1966, and May, 1967. It was set up under the auspices of the Department of Economic Affairs. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore), who was then responsible for these negotiations, can help the hon. Gentleman.