HC Deb 02 December 1970 vol 807 cc1282-4
39. Sir G. Nabarro

asked the Minister for the Civil Service, whereas electronic location or status indicating equipment was installed in 1968 for use of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury and its use is now discontinued by the present incumbent of that office, how many civil servants and at what cost annually replaced the equipment; and how the equipment was disposed of and at what price compared with its cost of £18,000.

Mr. David Howell

I have personally inspected the equipment, known I believe as ELSIE. It is no longer in use but its future I find has yet to be decided. No additional civil servants have been employed in place of this equipment.

Sir G. Nabarro

Is it not the fact that this electronic equipment is rusty and obsolescent and is lying in a corner of the Patronage Secretary's office? Does my hon. Friend agree, having regard to all the surrounding circumstances, that it is the innate sense of discipline and responsibility of Government Members which contributes to high majorities—such as the 46 achieved on the Merseyshide vote last evening—substantially in excess of the Government's recognised majority?

Mr. Howell

I share my hon. Friend's view about the voting skills on this side of the House and my right hon. Friend's prowess in the matter. It seems to be the case that we can do better without this rather elaborate and unnecessary piece of equipment.

Mr. Mellish

As I was responsible for operating ELSIE, may I get on record that, under our control, she was a very well-behaved young lady and every time one pressed her she lit up? It is typical of this Government that the present machinery has degenerated and is no longer of any use.

Mr. Howell

Well behaved she may have been, but she was also a little pricey.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Cannot the Whips on either side do this sort of labour of love with their quill pens? Will my hon. Friend please see that the bill for this particular device is sent to the Parliamentary Labour Party, not to the taxpayer?

Mr. Howell

It is certainly the case that we can manage without it. Concerning cost, maintenance costs will not arise in future if we do not use it.

Mr. O'Malley

The Minister should get his facts right about it being pricey. Will he confirm, first, that when that equipment was introduced the number of clerks employed was reduced by two, which cut down the cost; and, secondly, that the Whips Office is now employing one more clerk than was employed under the Labour Administration?

Mr. Howell

No more clerks are employed at public expense in the Whips Office, so the staff saving achieved by ELSIE is still maintained without ELSIE.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg leave to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

40. Sir Gerald Nabarro

asked the Minister for the Civil Service, pursuant to failure of electronic location or status indicating equipment to deliver correct results for guidance of civil servants employed in the office of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury at the House of Commons between 1968 and June, 1970, what further employment for the equipment is now arranged within the Civil Service.

Mr. David Howell

We do not yet know whether this equipment can be used in any way in the Civil Service. If not, it will be disposed of in the most appropriate way.

Sir G. Nabarro

I must press my hon. Friend. Does he agree that whereas it has no direct use within the Civil Service, it is a highly specialised piece of electronic equipment, specially constructed to meet the peculiar needs of the Labour Party, and has no known application in the outside world? Will my hon. Friend step along to Smith Square and offer it to Transport House for the purpose of rescuing the dismal finances of the Labour Party?

Mr. Howell

Sorting out the ways and problems of Transport House is a matter for hon. Members opposite.

Mr. David Steel

Is the Minister aware that if he will knock the price down low enough we might even take it in the Liberal Party?

Mr. Howell

I am open to all ideas, however bizarre.