HC Deb 23 April 1970 vol 800 cc632-40

Q10. Mr. Winnickasked the Prime Minister if he will place a copy of the public speech he made on 18th April at York to the United Nations Association in the Library.

The Prime Minister

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave on Tuesday to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnworth (Mr. Thornton). — [Vol. 800, c. 87.]

Mr. Winnick

Is it not possible that part of the reason for the present opinion poll findings is that a large number of people in Britain wish to see a complete condemnation of the type of evil which exists in Rhodesia? Apart from various secret talks, should not the Leader of the Opposition make perfectly clear that there can be no honourable agreement between Britain and the illegal regime based on the six principles? Why does the Leader of the Opposition not make perfectly clear that no such agreement can be negotiated?

The Prime Minister

I never comment on public opinion polls. [An HoN. MEMBER: " Indeed?"] I did not comment on them yesterday. If the Leader of the Opposition has any evidence to the contrary, he should get up and say so. He is always more articulate outside this House—as on the subject we discussed on Tuesday—than he is inside the House, but I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not wish to interrupt from a seated position.

Mr. Faulds

He has not the spine to stand up.

The Prime Minister

With regard to— [Interruption.] There is plenty of time. With regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I think some of us are getting a little tired— [An HON. MEMBER: " Of you."] However tired people may be of me, I think most people will regard me as the lesser of the two evils. I always put these things in a modest way. With regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I think that the House is getting a little tired of having to waste time at Question Time. This must be the sixth time now that hon. Gentlemen in various parts of the House have asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will come clean, which he has not done, about any secret contacts between his party and the Rhodesians.

Mr. Heath

Will the Prime Minister be so kind as to state what his specific complaint is against my colleagues and myself and provide the evidence for it?

The Prime Minister

The complaint against the right hon. Gentleman is that he has failed to answer challenges, both in the Press and six times in the House, suggesting that there have been secret talks between his party and the illegal regime in Rhodesia. That is the complaint which he has not either confirmed or denied. If he had denied it the first time it was raised the whole House would have accepted his denial.

Instead, we got this extraordinary comment on Sunday night—really, I do not know what is coming over the right hon. Gentleman with his irascibility in these —matters when he referred to long-past negotiations which the whole House knew about. Surely he can tell us that there have been no emissaries—no private contacts between him and the regime in the last three or four months. If he says that there have not been, the House will be very ready to accept it; and we have been waiting a long time. If he says that there have been, he had better give us a full account of them.

Mr. Heath

Will the Prime Minister now, instead of—

Hon. Members

Answer!

Mr. Heath

— instead of—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The House hears both sides.

Mr. Faulds

Come clean, Ted.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Faulds) must control himself.

Mr. Heath

Will the Prime Minister now, instead of referring to allegations which have been absolutely unsubstantiated and made by his own backbenchers, and with which he did not associate himself until his speech at York, say what is the specific complaint against myself and my colleagues and provide the House with the evidence for such a complaint?

The Prime Minister

This becomes more extraordinary. I have given the right hon. Gentleman— [HoN. MEMBERS: Answer! "]—I will answer, yes. The right hon. Gentleman has been given every facility.

Hon. Members

Answer!

Mr. Speaker

Order. The House hears both sides.

The Prime Minister

I will tell the right hon. Gentleman what the complaint against him is. That is his question. It is that he has been given every facility, which could have ended this weeks ago, for saying that there have been no contacts. He has refused, and still refuses, to do so.

The complaint is that he refuses to answer allegations, not only by my hon. Friends, but allegations made also on behalf of the Liberal Party, allegations made in the British Press—a straight challenge to him in the British Press, a report in the Daily Telegraph from Rhodesia saying that this was being said by the Rhodesian regime in its election campaign; and a statement in The Times —[HON. MEMBERS: " Oh."] —this week to the effect that spokesmen for what are called political circles in Rhodesia —as far as I know, there is only one that is free to speak there—have said that these contacts have taken place.

It is now for the right hon. Gentleman to deny that or confirm it.

Mr. Heath

I have made plain in the House—I made it plain in the statement on Saturday—that, whenever anybody from Rhodesia, whether a supporter or an opponent of the regime, wishes to see my colleagues or myself, in London or elsewhere, he is and has been free to do so; that there is nothing whatever secret about these meetings; that, when there have been new proposals, they have been offered to the Government; and that, when there has been nothing new, for obvious reasons nothing has been said to the Government. I have further said that if there is any information the Government want, they can have it on request.

The country can therefore know quite clearly that the Prime Minister has absolutely no complaint against myself or my colleagues and has not a scrap of evidence to offer for his allegation.

The Prime Minister

The statement made by the right hon. Gentleman—on Sunday, I think, not Saturday—did not answer the question put to him. The right hon. Gentleman said in the House a few weeks ago, and I was content to accept it then, that anyone coming to this country from Rhodesia—for or against the regime—is seen by himself, or indeed any other right hon. Gentleman in any party. That is normal and has been happening for a long time. I said that when the right hon. Gentleman raised this question on a previous occasion.

The question is not that, nor is it the issue with which the right hon. Gentleman tried to obfuscate the matter on Sunday as to whether we were told by the right lion. Members for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) and Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) when they were there. Of course we were told, and the House was told. The question is—and I have no evidence on this, as I have made clear to the right hon. Gentleman— [HoN. MEMBERS: " Oh."] —except the fact that this matter has now been raised at least half a dozen times in the House and evidence produced, even in the Tory Press, which the right hon. Gentleman seems unwilling to answer. [Interruption.]

I have said many many times—if the hon. Gentleman will, to use the choice phrase of a right hon. Gentleman, contain his impatience—that if the right hon. Gentleman will deny these secret talks the whole House will accept it. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman has not denied these talks, in view of all the statements made about it. He now tells me that he is prepared to make available to the Government all information about all secret contacts he has had. [Interruption.] Is not that what he has just said?

Mr. Heath

No.

The Prime Minister

About any contacts he has had. He now says that he will make these available across the Floor of the House. That is not the qualification made in his statement on Sunday night. Will he now make available to me and the House any information about any contacts there have been through any emissary, if there has been one? If there have been no contacts, as I have said every time, the House will accept it. If there have been contacts, the House as well as the Government is entitled to know.

Mr. Heath

I have told the country that the Opposition will make available to the Government any information for which they ask, in addition to the fact that any new proposals which come to us we always offer to the Government.

I am not prepared to make public information which is given to us by opponents of the regime who come to see us; and I would not have thought that anybody in the House would ask me to do so.

I have further constantly said that there has been nothing secret about any meeting—no secret at all. I repeated that in my statement this weekend.

Therefore, the country knows that the Prime Minister has done what in my experience no Prime Minister or Leader of an Opposition has done before, and that is ally himself with entirely unsubstantiated smears against people on this side of the House and against individuals named in this country. I am astonished that any Prime Minister should have associated himself with such things. When, may I ask him, has any Prime Minister or Leader of the Opposition felt it necessary to make entirely unsubstantiated smears?

The Prime Minister

What I have done about the right hon. Gentleman is to align myself with no statement but to ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer questions that have been put and statements which have been made in the Conservative Press in Britain—statements on behalf of the regime in Rhodesia—that such contacts have taken place. I have said I do not know how many times—I said it some weeks ago—that if the right hon. Gentleman would deny these statements the whole House would accept it. He has not yet denied any of these statements. The right hon. Gentleman, characteristically, is trying to evade the issue now by saying that he would not wish to place before either the Government or the House or the public statements made by opponents of the regime. Of course he has not, and of course he is right about that. [Interruption.] That is what he has just said. It is within the recollection of the House. The allegations which must remain unproven until the right hon. Gentleman comes clean are not that he has been talking to Sir Roy Welensky—I hope that he has, and I hope that he has been talking to Rhodesian liberals—

Hon. Members

Too long.

The Prime Minister

Of course it is too long for right hon. Gentlemen opposite. This could have been cut short a month ago by the right hon. Gentleman. The allegation which remains unproven and which he must deal with is whether anyone on his behalf, directly or indirectly, through any emissary, document or in any other way, has been discussing with the regime the possible terms of a future settlement.

Mr. Ridley

On a point of order. The Prime Minister has now on six separate occasions made unsubstantiated allegations against my right hon. Friend for which he admits he has no evidence whatsoever and which my right hon. Friend has answered to the full. [HoN. MEMBERS: " Oh."] Is it not the custom in the House that when a right hon. or hon. Member accuses another he is courteous enough to withdraw offensive remarks for which he has no substantive evidence at all to offer? Therefore, Mr. Speaker, would you call upon the Prime Minister to withdraw the allegations which he has been unable to substantiate this afternoon?

Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have a lot of business ahead of us. I will deal with the point of order. It is in fact a point of argument between the two Front Benches and not a point of order.

Mr. McNamara

Further to the point of order. The Leader of the Opposition did not reply to the specific point made by my right hon. Friend. In those circumstances, was it legitimate for the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) to appear as a new champion for the Leader of the Opposition?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a point of order.

Mr. Marten

Further to that last point of order, Mr. Speaker. Without our in any way entering into the political merits involved in Rhodesia, and recognising that we are in a highly political atmosphere, could you give a Ruling on whether it is in order for an hon. Gentleman opposite during Question Time, when the Government are under question, to pose a question to the Opposition?

Mr. Speaker

Order. It is not unknown during Question Time for an hon. Member who should be putting a Question to a Minister to make a side thrust at the Opposition. It is in order.

Mr. Howie

On a new point of order. Since the House is in considerable difficulty over what is alleged to have happened here, in Salisbury, or elsewhere, would it be in order for the Leader of the Opposition to issue a Shadow White Paper to explain the situation to us?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a point of order. The habit is growing, and I must deprecate it, of putting as points of order points of political argument.

Mr. Paget

On a point of order. May one inquire on what Question before the House all this has taken place? As I understand it, there have for a long time been negotiations, direct and secret—one remembers Sir Max Aitken and Lord Goodman—between the Government of Rhodesia and Her Majesty's Government. Now there appears to be a suggestion that the Opposition have taken on where the Government have failed, and the Opposition seem to be extraordinarily sensitive about it. Why?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a point of order but a point of mystification on the part of the hon. and learned Gentleman.

Mr. Peyton

On a point of order. In answer to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten), Mr. Speaker, you said that the practice of Ministers asking questions was not unknown. The fact that the practice is not unknown surely does not put it in order. My submission to you is that the Prime Minister characteristically and habitually cheats at Question Time.

Mr. Speaker

Order. That too is not a point for Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Winnick

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory reply given by the Leader of the Opposition, I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Blaker

Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), surely the Prime Minister's practice of asking questions is to be encouraged, so that he should get some practice for his future role?

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have had a number of points of order which would have been proper supplementary questions at the right time if I had called them.

Mr. Amery

This is a genuine supplementary—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The right hon. Gentleman has shot himself down. I am not taking supplementaries now.