HC Deb 20 April 1970 vol 800 cc177-80

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made, and Question,

That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session relating to finance, it is expedient to authorise—

  1. (a)the payment of sums out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums so payable under the Selective Employment Payments Act 1966 which is attributable to any provision of that Act of the present Session providing for relief from selective employment tax by way of the payment to employers of amounts not exceeding the amount of that tax paid by them.
  2. (b)any increase in the sums to be issued out of the National Loans Fund which is attributable to any provision of that Act of the present Session enabling the Treasury to issue out of that Fund sums to be advanced by way of loan to the Exchequer of Northern Ireland,
  3. (c)any increase in the amounts payable out of the Consolidated Fund which is attributable to any provision of that Act of the present Session relating to rates of interest under the enactments about savings banks.—[Mr. Roy Jenkins]

put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 90(2) (Ways and Means motions), and agreed to

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the Resolutions relating to Ways and Means and Finance [Money] and the Orders relating to Procedure made this day: to be brought in by The Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. John Diamond, Mr. Dick Taverne, and Mr. William Rodgers. Bill to grant certain duties, to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to the National Debt and the Public Revenue, and to make further provision in connection with Finance, presented accordingly by Mr. Taverne, and read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 148.]

Sir Douglas Glover (Ormskirk)

On a point of order. When the debate finished tonight, it was quite obvious—[Interruption] I am protecting your interests.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not protecting my interests.

Sir D. Glover

When the debate finished tonight, it was, in the knowledge of a great many hon. Members, shortly before ten o'clock. I am quite prepared to accept that it is a difficult matter for the Chair.

I should like to get a Ruling from the Chair on whether one becomes out of order at 15 seconds before ten o'clock, because to my mind there was no doubt tonight that when my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish) rose, it was just that very slight fraction of time before ten o'clock. [Interruption]

Hon. Members opposite who complain about what I am saying often wish to make the same point to the Chair. It is a matter of importance in looking after the interest of back benchers at which precise moment I or some other hon. Member is out of order as the clock ticks away. Tonight, there was a slight difference of view, and a Ruling from the Chair would be helpful.

Mr. Speaker

I am grateful to the hon. Member for putting the point so clearly. [Laughter] Order. The Chair is dealing with this matter seriously. The decision is a difficult one to make. It may be that if, in the last seconds before ten o'clock, I called an hon. Member to use the 15 seconds on a point of order, somebody would have moved the Closure and the result would have been the same. It is a difficult matter to decide what to do with the 15 seconds before ten o'clock, knowing that 15 seconds after ten o'clock could lose a Motion which was before the House. It is a serious and difficult point.

Sir Ian Orr-Ewing (Hendon, North)

On a point of order. To clarify matters, Mr. Speaker, would it not be a good idea if we had clocks with a second hand sweeping round so that we could see exactly what the time was, as is done in every modern organisation?

Mr. Speaker

I am not so interested in the question of the second hand, but I think that the Procedure Committee might consider this difficult position, which ties every occupant of the Front Bench, on either side, when he is due to sit down at ten o'clock and may lose a Bill or a Motion if he sits down after ten o'clock.

J. T. Price (Westhoughton)

Further to the point of order. I merely wish to ask you Mr. Speaker, whether it would not be still better if some hon. Members opposite could tell the time.

Mr. Speaker

Order. That may be an interesting point, but it has nothing to do with the point of order.