HC Deb 20 April 1970 vol 800 cc207-14

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. F. H. Dobson.]

11.37 p.m.

Dame Irene Ward (Tynemouth)

I think that this will be a rather odd Adjournment debate, because when I put down the title of my debate, "Concessionary Fares", I had guidance, for which I am very grateful, from the Principal Clerk in the Table Office, who told me how careful I must be not to get out of order. Naturally, much appreciating that advice and knowing the rules of Adjournment debates, I will endeavour to keep within the rules of order. But I presume that, as long as I am not outside the Ministerial powers and as long as I do not suggest that there should be any alteration requiring legislation, I can, at any rate, say something in this House for the protection of the interests of the elderly, the blind, and the disabled in relation to concessionary fares.

I think that I am entitled to put on record how extraordinary it is that it gets more difficult in this House—I have been here a long time so I think that I am entitled to say this—really to talk about the interests and the needs of the people who voted to send one to Parliament, and it is regrettable.

However, having chosen to speak about concessionary fares, fate came to my aid. If the House of Commons, Ministers, the Chair, and the rules of the House cannot come to my aid, at least fate has come to my aid. Because nobody apparently seems to know anything about concessionary fares, I was telephoned by the B.B.C. and subsequently by Independent Television.

I was asked by the B.B.C. whether I would explain briefly over the telephone what my Adjournment debate on concessionary fares related to, because the corporation did not seem to know. I was able, without transgressing any rules of order, to explain exactly what the situation was, and, thank goodness, I was allowed to go on "The World at One". The world now knows all about concessionary fares, and about the way in which the Minister of Transport has put a fast one over those who are to be covered by the provisions for concessionary fares. I was able to tell the world what I thought about everything, and I had a much better audience then than I have in the House. I was not in any way restricted by the rules of order.

I am feeling on top of the world, and I am not really bothered about not being able to say what I want to here, but I must enter a protest at the fact that more and more legislation, and the method of its introduction, makes it very difficult for my constituents, and those in other parts of the country, to know what the Minister of Transport is at. He introduces powers to provide concessionary fares, but he then escapes from taking any part in finding the necessary finance by handing the responsibility for that over to the local authorities. Everybody is glad that, even though the Minister does not intend to provide the necessary finance, concessionary fares are to be allowed on nationalised bus services. The money will have to be provided by the ratepayers, which means that many of the people who will be allowed concessionary fares will have to pay for the service through their rates.

One gets a lot in correspondence which one cannot repeat in the House. This is part of the peculiarity of the whole method of introducing legislation. I received a very interesting letter from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, in whom I am naturally interested, as he comes from my part of the world. I am really arguing the case on behalf of my constituents. The hon. Gentleman said that the arrangements that had been made had nothing to do with nationalisation.

The Minister of Transport has nationalised a large number of bus services. As far as I can make out, as long as I talk about nationalised bus services which are controlled by a passenger transport authority, and as long as I confine my remarks to the Minister's powers, I shall be in order. In any event, though, I think that I am entitled to ask for an interpretation of " concessionary fares ". We are grateful that old people, the blind, and the disabled are to be allowed concessionary fares, but all that the Minister has said is that the passenger transport authority can exercise certain powers in relation to nationalised bus services, and under no circumstances are these services to contribute to the financing of this concession.

I should like to know why the Government have said that they will give concessionary fares when they are not giving them. Local authorities may argue with the passenger transport authorities, but they have no power, and in the end they will have to pay the money. I am sure that many local authorities will be glad to do this, because they believe in looking after the elderly, the blind and the disabled, but it is a bit of a swizz and a bit of skulduggery for the Minister to talk about concessionary fares as if the Ministry were going to provide them, because it is not.

The Minister has appointed a highly respected Socialist Durham county councillor to be chairman of the Tyneside Transport Committee, so he has a dedicated Socialist—

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Bob Brown)

Let me clear up the position straight away. The hon. Lady is labouring under a misconception. The chairman of the Tyneside passenger authority was not elected by the Minister. He was elected by the members of the authority.

Dame Irene Ward

In the answer to a Question that I asked mention was made of Ministerial appointments. It gave the names of two members—the chairman and the vice-chairman—as Ministerial appointments. I do not know what goes on behind the scenes. I am only a Conservative Member fighting the Socialist Government. But the answer that I received gave the name of Alderman Cunningham as chairman of the transport authority, and said that he had been appointed by the Minister. The name of the vice-chairman was also given as a Ministerial appointment. The others were elected by the various local authorities. If the Minister will look up that answer he will see that that is what it said. If the Government said the wrong thing—as Socialist Governments often do—I am sorry, but I am only a humble back bencher in opposition, and I cannot argue.

I should like to know what happens if, after the transport authority and the local authority have decided what the concessionary fares will cost the local authority, the transport authority puts up the fares. Does that affect the original arrangement? The fares of the nationalised buses go up by leaps and bounds while, at the same time, we seem to get fewer and fewer buses and less and less regularity in their running. I want this information, because the Tyneside local authorities are at present undecided whether or not to have concessionary fares, and this lack of decision is very hard on the elderly, the blind and the disabled.

I want now to quote from a letter which was circulated by the Minister to local authorities on 19th March, 1970. It is headed " Travel Concessions," and states: As you will know, the Minister has per-missive powers "— The words are " permissive powers." I regard that as exciting, because in the other letter we were told that the Minister had no rights at all; that it was all a matter for the passenger transport authority plus the local authorities: …to prescribe by Order the method of calculating the cost of providing travel concessions under the Public Service Vehicles (Travel Concessions) Act 1955, the Transport Act 1968, and the Transport (London) Act 1969. As explained in the Department's letter of 29th January 1969…describing the new travel concessions provisions generally, these powers were taken because it was thought "— and the way people think is sometimes quite extraordinary: that both local authorities and operators might consider it of advantage for statutory provision to be made for a method of calculation which would be recognised as fair to both parties. That is a very generous way of putting it, but is it fair to both parties? I think that the only people to whom it will be fair are the nationalised bus operators. They will not contribute any money, and if they make a loss—and the nationalised industries have made losses in almost every case; we are always writing off capital for them, increasing charges, and so on—the local authorities have to foot the bill. I cannot see whether the question of being fair and just to all parties comes in if they divide the responsibility.

I shall not argue about municipal buses, because I am not allowed to, but in the old days when buses were owned by local authorities it helped to balance the accounts to give concessionary fares for off-peak hours. So it was to the advantage of the local authorities to introduce concessionary fares. But in this instance the nationalised bus undertakings are not accepting any responsibility, and the people who have to pay are the local authorities.

The Minister has another power about which the Principal Clerk in the Table Office very kindly told me. He wrote: …he has power, under Section 138(7) of that Act,"— the Transport Act, 1968— whenever local authorities and National Bus Company area executives decide to enter into travel concession agreements, to make an order providing how the cost is to be calculated. This is a fairly narrow power, and does not mean that he can exercise any influence on the basic decision. That means that the basic decision is no part of the task that shall fall on the passenger transport authority running nationalised buses. So under what power has the Minister the right to order the local authority and the passenger transport authority to enter into arrangements if he cannot alter the basis of calculation, which says that every cost must be borne by the local authority? It is parliamentary jargon, part of this bally nationalisation when nobody tells you the truth. The Act speaks of concessionary fares, but they are not concessionary fares. They are concessionary fares for local authorities to exercise, and I am sure that many of them will be delighted to do it, but I believe that they would have considered it fair for part of the financial burden to be taken off them.

The local authorities have representatives on the passenger transport authority, and the argument will be that they would see that the nationalised bus companies are run at a profit. They just keep on putting up the price in exactly the same way as all other nationalised industries.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay)

Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Lady, but it is the practice and custom on the Adjournment debate to give the Minister adequate time to reply.

Dame Irene Ward

I think that the Minister will be given adequate time to reply, because I cannot say anything except to explain what the Act is about. I do not think that I have said anything wrong. I was about to sit down. I am glad that you are protecting the Minister, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I only wish that the House could protect my constituents.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The Chair is not protecting the Minister. The Chair is merely protecting the customs and usages of the House.

Dame Irene Ward

But occasionally I am outlawing the customs and usages of the House. We never used to have nationalisation. Now that we have it it has rather outlawed our customs.

11.59 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Bob Brown)

I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for your intervention. I would have hoped that the hon. Lady might be courteous enough to sit down in time for me to give her a considered reply. She talked about the entertaining programme that I understand she gave on " The World at One " at lunchtime today, and said that the world now knows everything about travel concessions. Having listened to her for the past 25 minutes or so, I should have thought that the world must now be more confused about travel concessions than it was before.

The term " concessionary fares " means either a free fare or any portion of the fare. The hon. Lady belaboured the Government because, she said, the Transport Act says that the Minister will give concessionary fares. She obviously has not read the Act. It makes no reference to the Minister granting concessionary fares. It refers to the power he bestows on local authorities to be able to give the blind, the disabled and elderly persons concessionary fares. In so far as she thinks it a good thing that the blind, the disabled and the elderly should have concessionary fares, I am at one with her.

But I must emphasise forcibly that the administration of the provisions in the Acts governing travel concessions is entirely a matter for decision at local level. All the initiative and action lie at that level. My right hon. Friend has no control over whether or not a concession scheme is introduced. The travel concessions powers are permissive, not mandatory, and it is up to the local interests concerned to decide if they wish to make use of them. This, in our view, is quite right.

This has always been the case with travel concessions. But giving concessions is bound to cost money. The hon. Lady talkedad nauseamabout nationalised buses. I will enlighten her. There are no nationalised buses operating under the control of the Tyneside Passenger Transport Authority. The authority, like all the other passenger transport authorities, is not a nationalised undertaking. These authorities are essentially local transport bodies run by local people.

I will enlighten the hon. Lady further. She referred to Alderman Cunningham, Chairman of the Tyneside Authority, as being a Ministerial nominee. It is true that he and another member, Mr. Arnold, are Ministerial nominees to membership of the authority, but the members of the authority themselves—and apart from these two gentlemen they are all elected local government representatives on Tyneside—decide who shall be chairman (subject to the approval of the Minister) and vice-chairman.

With these wide powers available, it is useless for the hon. Lady to complain or imply that concessions are not being offered in her area. The powers are sufficient for the needs of every area of the country and any action must be taken at local level. I understand that, on Tyneside, the Passenger Transport Authority has taken the initiative in trying to arrange a scheme of half-fare concessions for the elderly, the blind and the disabled. Negotiations on this are still in progress. The scheme put forward is, of course, on the basis that the local authorities shall undertake the cost, as has always been the case in travel concessions hitherto.

I am not saying that local people are without any means at their disposal in this respect. Given that the senior citizens of the area do wish to have travel concessions, it is open to them to put their views strongly to the local authorities such as Tynemouth which are at present declining to take advantage of the legislation, and, of course, in the final event, it is open to the electorate to register their own verdict through the ballot box.

There is much more I should like to have said, but the hon. Lady has left me very little time. I will therefore have to condense my remarks. Basically, it is not for me, as a junior Minister, either to justify or condemn the attitude of Tynemouth Borough Council or any other local authority on Tyneside. It is for the electorate of the area to judge the record of their local authorities' treatment of the elderly, the blind and the disabled as to the availability of travel concessions, now that the Government have given the local authorities the power to ease the lot of the weaker members of our society in this way. It is for the members of Tynemouth County Borough Council to decide where they stand in this matter.

On way into the Chamber this evening, I was handed a Press cutting from theNewcastle Journalof Saturday headed " Change of heart ". I learn from it that, since receiving a 2,000 signature petition organised by Tynemouth Labour Party—

Dame Irene Ward

—and my letter.

Mr. Brown

—the Tynemouth Welfare Committee has also had a change of heart, as the hon. Lady had a change of heart in writing to theEvening Chronicle, Newcastle, after the petition had been started, and that the Welfare Committee may now consider giving the blind, the disabled, and the elderly travel concessions.

I am glad they have had this change of heart. The effect that a petition from the opposition party in the council and the impending council election can have on the affairs of some councils is remarkable.

Dame Irene Ward

It was my letter which started it.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at seven minutes past Twelve o'clock.