Mr. GonerI beg to move Amendment No. 15, in page 5, line 35, leave out:
including imported eggs and imported egg products".In Committee we did not seek to move Amendments to this Clause dealing with research and development. We were pondering the significance of the Clause and we probed the Government on one or two aspects in the main debate on the Clause. The most significant information we obtained from the Government was that they were firmly committed to paying some part of the cost of research and development. Now we seek to probe a 401 little further on paragraph (b), dealing withresearch into the demand for eggs or egg products and into matters connected therewith, including the collection and analysis of information as to that demand and as to the prices paid for eggs or egg products,…".The next words are the ones we seek to exclude:including imported eggs and imported egg products,….What have the Government in mind? We had understood that it was their objective, as it is ours, that this country should be self-sufficient in eggs. The provision of a minimum import price which they are establishing should help in that regard. Therefore, we wonder why there is any need to have research or development in any matter relating to imported eggs.There could possibly be a case in regard to imported egg products, because they have been substantial, though I see no reason why we should not substitute home-produced egg products for a large proportion. But I find it very difficult to understand why there is any need to make provision for research into the demand for imported eggs. It seems to run counter to the Government's announced proposals on eggs. It certainly runs counter to our own thinking about our self-sufficiency in eggs.
It could lead to misunderstanding, in that it could give the impression that the Government were thinking of a continuing need for a substantial importation of eggs. I hope and believe that that is not their feeling, but the retention of these words gives a definite feeling that there might be provision for this. The words seem wholly superfluous to us. There should be no reason for keeping them. I do not rest my argument on the mere point of drafting, but if the words were deleted I doubt very much whether the authority would be prohibited from carrying out any research into imported eggs and their sale.
I rest my case on the actual need. It is inappropriate to include in such a Bill reference to imported eggs when it is clear to all concerned with the matter that British egg producers are highly efficient and produce all the eggs we need. There is no need to encourage egg imports, and therefore there is no need to encourage research into their 402 sale or disposal. The words are unnecessary and jar against the principle that we hope the Government accept, as we certainly have, that we should be concentrating on home-produced eggs, particularly shell eggs, rather than relying on imported eggs. We believe that we can do so, and therefore the words should be deleted, unless the Government can show clear reason why they wish to keep them in.
§ Mr. HawkinsI feel even more strongly about the matter than does my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber). I have always felt that we in this country could be fully self-sufficient in eggs and egg products. I am convinced that our egg industry, which is very powerful and very modern, could well fill any gap. Now is the time to say that we shall have no more imported eggs and egg products from anywhere, because occasionally the very small amount of eggs that has been coming in has been a cause of considerable damage to our home egg market. Therefore, I press with all the strength at my command that the words be left out.
§ 11.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Peter MillsI support my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) and am unhappy that there should be included in the Bill the words
research into the demand for…imported eggs and egg products.It seems ridiculous that a British Egg Authority—and some of us tried to include the word "British" in Committee—should be at all interested in the demand for imported eggs. This is the wrong way to go about this. Even though the amount of imported eggs is small, possibly about 2 per cent., it is easy for it to upset the balance of the industry, and cause great damage. It is ridiculous that we should import eggs when we have an abundant supply of our own. The danger does not come so much from the shell egg but from the importation of egg products.I hope that the Minister realises the dangers ahead. Through the Government's failure to assist in support buying, the bakers and those in the cake industry are extremely concerned that they will not be able to continue to buy British 403 egg products, but will have to rely on imported products. The Farmer and Stockbreeder said recently that:
The market for egg products, which offers the one hope for the home industry in times of temporary over-supply, is in danger of being filled by imported products as the present egg marketing structure is dismantled.That will be the position in future, unless something is done.Some 25,000 tons of egg products go into the baking trade annually and this will increase. Those of us who have made some researches know that this is a growing trade. It is a convenience food and more egg products will be required. The authority ought to be far more concerned about home produced egg products rather than with the demand for imported egg products. I ask the Minister to look seriously at our Amendment because behind it looms the problem of imported eggs and egg products. I hope that he can show us that it is not the intention of the authority to be concerned with the demand for imported eggs or egg products.
§ Mr. PeytonI join with my hon. Friends who have so far spoken in wishing to stem the tide of foreign eggs entering our country, but the question I would ask is: why on earth have these words been put into the Bill? The Clause as worded gives the authority power to collate or prepare information or estimates with respect to prices, supply, demand and other market conditions, whether actual or prospective, relating to eggs or egg products. There are no words to exclude imported eggs or imported egg products, and one wonders why the words are put in, unless it is wished to give my hon. Friends the chance of a little debating practice. The words are superfluous. I hope the Ministers will say that they have made a mistake, and that they realise the words are totally unnecessary.
§ Sir J. FosterWill the Minister tell us whether the words:
including imported eggs and imported egg productsqualify the words "eggs or egg products" the first time they are mentioned? If that is so, it may be that part of the Amendment is unnecessary. It is straining language to make the qualification 404 refer back to the first use of the words "eggs or egg products". It is true that Casement was executed on a similar construction of the Treason Act, 1351, where the words "in the Kingdom or elsewhere" were held to refer back to the first time the expression "eggs or egg products" was mentioned.
§ Mr. John M. Temple (City of Chester)Did my lion. Friend see the interesting letter in The Times yesterday from my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page), in which he suggested that parliamentary draftsmen should spend a sabbatical year in a solicitor's office, after which they would be able to draft more clearly? Does he agree with that?
§ Sir J. FosterNo, I have great respect for the parliamentary draftsmen. I do not know if I have made my point clear. The expression "eggs or egg products" is mentioned twice. On the second occasion the words:
including imported eggs and imported egg productsare added. In ordinary language that qualification would apply only to the last occasion on which those words are mentioned, and it is straining language to make them refer back.The words are not necessary, I have shown that the construction is ambiguous and I hope that the Government will agree to exclude the words. If my construction is right, it is even more ridiculous that the authority may engage in research into prices paid for imported eggs but not into the demand.
§ Mr. BuchanI was a little surprised to see the Amendment and I wondered what would be made of it. It has served to raise the question and has enabled hon. Members to express their genuine fears about importation. The drafting point was that the words were unnecessary, and it was asked whether this had anything to do with the yoke of foreign eggs by which we are dominated.
On the drafting point, it has been said that if we had wanted to deal with imported eggs and imported egg products we could have done so anyway since the Clause refers only to eggs. I refer hon. Members to page 2, where "eggs" and "egg products" are defined:
'eggs' means eggs in shell laid by domestic fowls, being, except when qualified by the word 405 'imported', eggs so laid in the United Kingdom;So that one falls.It is quite irrelevant whether there will be more importation or less importation. If there is to be more importation, it will be done regardless of subsection (5)(b). If there is to be less importation, it will be done regardless of subsection (5)(b). The subsection is concerned only with research, and the Amendment will prevent necessary research being carried out to assist the authority.
We believe that the authority should be assisted. We believe that one of the factors which would assist the authority should appeal to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and it is the effect on the prices paid for eggs and egg products, whether referring to the first or second reference to egg products, because, whatever the grammatical context, the value of either or both would be useful to the authority in determining these matters.
That is all that it does. The information on prices which the authority will need to collect and analyse in this context will be primarily information relating to home-produced eggs and egg products. But there is sometimes an interrelationship between prices of home-produced products and imported supplies.
§ Mr. PeytonI confess that I had not noticed this arrogantly insular definition of "eggs and egg products", and I cannot help feeling that the confusion calls for the presence of one of those fabulous creatures, a Scottish Law Officer, to explain it.
§ Mr. BuchanI do not think that anyone doubted that the hon. Gentleman had not read the definition, but I am glad to have his assurance.
§ Sir J. FosterWill the hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. BuchanNot about Roger Casement, I hope.
§ Sir J. FosterNo. May I ask him which construction he adopts? In the definition Clause, it says "qualified". Does he say that the last expression qualifies the first?
§ Mr. BuchanIt qualifies both. My point was that it was, in this sense, irrelevant and, whether it qualified the first or both, it was of assistance to the authority. However, I will give the hon. and learned Gentleman the point that it qualifies both.
This has been a useful, if slightly humorous, debate. I hope that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen will now withdraw the Amendment.
§ Mr. GodberI must disappoint the Minister, because I could not possibly agree to withdraw the Amendment after such an unsatisfactory reply. He has not faced up to my main point, which was that, if it is the intention of this Government, as it will be the intention of the next one, to see that imports are minimal or non-existent, what is the need for research into imported eggs or egg products?
In reply, the Minister said that, if we were to take this way, it would prevent necessary research. I challenge him to justify the word "necessary". There can be no necessary research on imported eggs. The necessity is to see that the home producer is provided for in such a way that he can produce all that we need. Research on imported eggs is wholly unnecessary and unjustified. The Minister's reply has been wholly unsatisfactory. I invite my hon. Friends to show their disapproval in the Division Lobby.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 104, Noes 136.
407| Division No. 95.] | AYES | [11.45 p.m. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Brewis, John | Dean, Paul |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Brinton, Sir Tatton | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas |
| Awdry, Daniel | Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Doughty, Charles |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Drayson, G. B. |
| Biffen, John | Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Eden, Sir John |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Chichester-Clark, R. | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Clark, Henry | Emery, Peter |
| Body, Richard | Clegg, Walter | Errington, Sir Eric |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Crouch, David | Fortescue, Tim |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Crowder, F. P. | Foster, Sir John |
| Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) | King, Tom | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Sharples, Richard |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | MacArthur, Ian | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Silvester, Frederick |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Speed, Keith |
| Goodhart, Philip | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Stodart, Anthony |
| Grant, Anthony | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Gurden, Harold | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Temple, John M. |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Miscampbell, Norman | Tilney, John |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Wall, Patrick |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Murton, Oscar | Walters, Dennis |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Hiley, Joseph | Nott, John | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Hill, J. E. B. | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Holland, Philip | Peyton, John | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Hunt, John | Pink, R. Bonner | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Worsley, Marcus |
| Iremonger, T. L. | Prior, J. M. L. | Wright, Esmond |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Pym, Francis | Wylie, N. R. |
| Jopling, Michael | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Younger, Hn. George |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Kimball, Marcus | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Mr. Jasper More and |
| King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Scott, Nicholas | Mr. Hector Monro. |
| Kitson, Timothy | ||
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Garrett, W. E. | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) |
| Anderson, Donald | Golding, John | Molloy, William |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Gregory, Arnold | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Moyle, Roland |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Newens, Stan |
| Beaney, Alan | Hamling, William | Norwood, Christopher |
| Bence, Cyril | Hannan, William | Oakes, Gordon |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Harper, Joseph | Ogden, Eric |
| Blackburn, F. | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Booth, Albert | Hazell, Bert | O'Malley, Brian |
| Boston, Terence | Henig, Stanley | Orme, Stanley |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hooley, Frank | Oswald, Thomas |
| Brooks, Edwin | Horner, John | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James | Park, Trevor |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Huckfield, Leslie | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Buchan, Norman | Hunter, Adam | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Hynd, John | Pentland, Norman |
| Cant, R. B. | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St.P'cras, S.) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Coleman, Donald | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Concannon, J. D. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Richard, Ivor |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Lawson, George | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Leadbitter, Ted | Rose, Paul |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Lee, John (Reading) | Rowlands, E. |
| Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Davies, E. Hudson (Conway) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Sillars, J. |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Loughlin, Charles | Silverman, Julius |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | MacDermot, Niall | Tinn, james |
| Dobson, Ray | Macdonald, A. H. | Varley, Eric G. |
| Doig, Peter | McElhone, Frank | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | McGuire, Michael | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Eadie, Alex | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) | Wallace, George |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Mackie, John | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Ellis, John | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Ennals, David | McNamara, J. Kevin | Whitlock, William |
| Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Willis, Rt. Hn. Georg |
| Fernyhough, E. | Marks, Kenneth | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Marquand, David | Winstanley, Dr.M. P. |
| Forrester, John | Mendelson, John | |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Millan, Bruce | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Miller., Dr. M. S. | Mr. Ernest Armstrong and |
| Gardner, Tony | Mr. James Hamilton. |