§ 19. Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will propose to the Conference of the Committee on Disarmament in Geneva that the use of herbicides and defoliants shall be added to the prohibited methods of warfare.
§ Mr. George ThomsonNo, Sir.
§ Mr. JenkinsWill my right hon. Friend affirm that the policy of successive British Governments, over a long period has been that the term "other gases" in the Geneva Protocol includes all gases, and therefore includes herbicides, defoliants, and lachrymatory gases? That has 21 been the position of British Governments in the past, and it was reiterated by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Luard) in November in a speech, a copy of which I have here, which was printed by the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, and are not Her Majesty's Government therefore in the position of stating one policy outside the House in relation to this matter, and another inside the House?
§ Mr. SpeakerLong supplementaries mean fewer Questions.
§ Mr. ThomsonMy hon. Friend's complaint is not true. On the main point of his supplementary question, there is another Question on the Order Paper about CS gas, so I had better not trespass on that. On the matter of herbicides and defoliants of which my hon. Friend speaks, Her Majesty's Government's position is that she wishes to make the best practical progress in matters short of general disarmament, which must remain the ideal of us all. For that reason we are concentrating on the draft Convention for the prohibition of biological methods of warfare.
§ 32. Mr. Philip Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will obtain reports from the International Control Commission of the quantities of CS gas and of poisonous herbicides and defoliant gases which have been used by the United States armed Forces in Vietnam since 1965; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. George ThomsonNo, Sir. It is for the International Control Commission in Vietnam to report to the members of the Geneva Conference on any matter relating to the execution of the Agreement on the Cessation of Hostilities in Vietnam it considers appropriate and it has not decided to report on this subject.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerIs my right hon. Friend aware that very high authorities in the United States have said, without contradiction, that 50,000 tons of defoliants and herbicides have been used in Vietnam, with a devastating long-term effect on the agriculture and the forests of that country? Will he say, first, whether he approves the use of herbicides and defoliants in war and, secondly, 22 whether the Government consider that they are forbidden by the Protocol of 1925?
§ Mr. ThomsonHer Majesty' Government disapprove of the horrors of war, and it is that that we should try to bring to an end in Vietnam. With regard to the Vietnam war—and my right hon. Friend speaks on it with deep feeling, which I understand—there is a dispute about the effects of these materials. We have no evidence that their use in Vietnam is causing lasting harm to the ecology of the country or is having any poisonous effects on human beings.
§ Mr. Michael FootDoes not my right hon. Friend appreciate that his answer is quite unsatisfactory for many thousands, and perhaps millions, of our people who want to have a much fuller account of what has happened and a much stronger effort by the Government to discover it? Will not the Minister follow up my right hon. Friend's proposal and report to the House at an early date on the findings he has about it? He says that we are all opposed to the horrors of war. Does not he accept the fact that some forms of warfare, even when we disapprove of all warfare, are more frightening and horrifying than others, especially when Her Majesty's Government give tacit or open support to the Vietnam war?
§ Mr. ThomsonI cannot accept my hon. Friend's final words. On the Vietnam war itself, the Government's view is that the American Administration are seeking a negotiated settlement on the basis of peace and Her Majesty's Government see every reason to support the attitude of President Nixon and the present American Administration. I recognise the deep feelings that exist about this matter and I shall keep the House informed about anything that we discover in connection with it. I have no doubt that hon. Members will not desist from pursuing us with Questions on a matter about which they feel so deeply.
§ Mr. Scott-HopkinsWill the right hon. Gentleman explain what little influence this Government have on what is going on in the Far East and how much less influence they will have as we progressively withdraw our troops from the Far East?
§ Mr. ThomsonI do not accept the hon. Gentleman's basic proposition, because, while recognising the limitations on our power and influence in various parts of the world, and recognising them more realistically than right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite do, I believe that we have considerable influence for good in many parts of the world.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerIn view of the fact that it is now five months since I began correspondence with my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary in an attempt to discover whether Her Majesty's Government approved of the use of herbicides and defoliants in war, and in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply that I have received, may I give notice that I intend to raise the matter on the Adjournment?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right hon. Gentleman ought to give notice in the conventional form.