§ 35. Mr. Macdonaldasked the Secretary of State for Defence what instructions are in force for those military units in Great Britain or overseas holding stocks of C.S. to ensure that stocks are not released to police or other civilian users except on evidence that these users are instructed in the use of C.S. devices.
§ Mr. HealeyNone. It is normal practice for police forces to obtain their supplies of C.S. direct from the manufacturers; only in exceptional circumstances which would need Ministry of Defence authority are issues made from Army stocks. In no circumstances would C.S. be issued to civilian users other than police.
§ Mr. MacdonaldIn view of the contrast between non-military units in Londonderry which, through no fault of their own, were uninstructed in firing these things and, on the other hand, the Army units in Belfast which, in similar circumstances, found that it was sufficient to discharge only seven—a contrast greatly to the credit of the Army—is there not a case, if an emergency arises and it is found necessary to discharge these things, for this to be done by armed forces which are instructed in their use, instead of handing them over to other people?
§ Mr. HealeyQuestions of how the police behave are not for me. During the original Londonderry riots, where a very large number of cartridges and grenades were fired, the police were not under the command of the Army. They 401 had been instructed—although I regret to say that there had not been time to give them detailed instruction—in the use of C.S. gas. At that time they were using C.S. gas issued by the Army rather than C.N. gas, which is a great deal more toxic, and no blame can be attached to them on that account. Since then, the police have come under the G.O.C. Northern Ireland, and they are getting much more detailed instruction in the use of C.S. gas. As my hon. Friend will recognise, in incidents in which the R.U.C. have used gas since the events in Londonderry, they have observed exactly the same restraint as the armed forces.
§ Mr. McMasterIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Londonderry the police withstood for six hours, from 6 p.m. till midnight, a hail of stones and petrol bombs in a vicious and sustained attack before firing one canister of C.S. gas in their defence, whereas recently in Belfast a church parade not intent on violence had C.S. canisters thrown at it by the police? Will the Minister ensure that in a situation as tense as that in Northern Ireland, where it is easy for mistakes to be made, this gas is not used in such a way as to lead to a hardening of attitudes and retaliation?
§ Mr. HealeyThe House must first of all recognise that C.S. gas is used only when it is preferable to using batons or bullets. Unpleasant as the consequences of C.S. gas are, I think most of us would prefer to have sore eyes for 10 minutes rather than be maimed by bullets for life. As to the events in Londonderry in August, these are the subject of an inquiry by Mr. Justice Scarman, and, with respect, I think hon. Members on both sides of the House would be wise to suspend judgment on these events till he presents his report.
§ Mr. OrmeDespite my right hon. Friend's reference to the Scarman tribunal, before which some of us have given evidence, may I ask whether he is aware that some of us were present in Londonderry on 14th August when we saw the use, or misuse, of this gas against the civilian population, and may I say that the control which the Army has exercised in these events since then is worthy of compliment? I hope that in future there will be very careful thought before this gas is used against civilians 402 and that it will be used only in the most extreme circumstances.
§ Mr. HealeyI am grateful to my hon. Friend. I do not think it is for me to comment on the behaviour of the police, for whom I am not responsible. Both sides of the House recognise that more recently C.S. gas has been used as it should be used, in the last resort and with great discrimination.