HC Deb 20 May 1969 vol 784 cc250-1
Mr. Atkinson

On a point of order. I apologise for detaining the House, but I wish to raise what many regard as an important issue. It arises, Mr. Speaker, from your Ruling to myself earlier when I put a supplementary question to the Prime Minister in respect of Question Q1 on the Order Paper. You ruled me out of order and said that it was a matter of photographs and not of expenditure generally.

I would point out to you, with respect, that the two things are, in fact, related. The reason I asked my supplementary question was that I understand that the only occasion on which a Permanent Secretary can reject or challenge expenditure committed by a Minister is either on public relations work, to which this matter of photographs was related, or on private expenditure which could possibly be charged to Government sources. In those two circumstances a permanent official has a right to challenge such expenditure.

The supplementary question which I put to the Prime Minister concerned the whole question of the right of a permanent official to challenge policies laid down by a Minister. The point which I make is that in my respectful view the question was in order, and I seek your Ruling because I should like to put a further Question on the Order Paper to the Prime Minister concerning the right of a permanent official "to forbid"—in the words of the Secretary of State for Social Services—the transfer of or expenditure arising from any policy pursued by a Minister. This is an extremely important question, particularly for hon. Members in the whole Labour movement.

Mr. Speaker

I am not interested in the importance of the question. The hon. Member is quite right, if he thinks something is important, to put a Question on the Order Paper about it. I ruled, quite rightly and positively, that Question Q1 was to ask the Prime Minister how many presentation copies of his photograph he has given away officially at the public expense, in the last 12 months. It is not in order, on a Question about photographs, to raise the whole matter of the relations of Permanent Secretaries to the Secretary of State for Social Services. The hon. Member must seek his own opportunity of doing that—but not on this Question.

Mr. Atkinson

Further to that point of order—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have ruled on the matter.