HC Deb 19 May 1969 vol 784 cc14-6
4. Sir B. Rhys Williams

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what consultations he has held on the problems of protecting pension rights in occupational pension schemes on changes of employment with organisations representing the beneficiaries of such schemes; and what consultations he intends to hold.

Mr. Ennals

Informal discussions have been held with the T.U.C. and the National Association of Pension Funds. These bodies are among those who have been invited to comment on a consultative document and we expect to hold further talks when their replies have been received.

Sir B. Rhys Williams

Has it been brought home to the Minister that people changing jobs are losing their pension rights at a rate well in excess of £100 million a year—in other words, at the rate of a great train robbery every nine days? Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate the urgency of this matter, even if only to promote greater mobility of labour?

Mr. Ennals

I am glad to hear that. It is precisely because so many people can neither transfer their pension rights nor have them preserved that we are bringing in this legislation. It is to remedy the faults of the past.

Mr. Frank Allaun

Is my hon. Friend aware that the fault is that of the employers and that I can quote many industries in which old workers are frightened of changing their jobs because the employers will not make their pensions transferable?

Mr. Ennals

It is absolutely true that the failure of employers either to make the rights of pensioners transferable or to preserve them causes a considerable hold-up in the movement of people from one job to another.

15. Sir B. Rhys Williams

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now withdraw the consultative document on proposed legislation on preservation of occupational pension rights issued on 31st March, and circulate in place of it a comparable document setting out the possible arrangements for legislation to protect pension rights by ensuring that transferability is granted in all practicable cases.

Mr. Ennals

No, Sir. We are satisfied that the consultative document sets out the most realistic basis for the proposed legislation.

Sir B. Rhys Williams

Does the Minister realise that, according to official figures, preservation goes only a quarter of the way towards solving the problem and that full transferability is the only satisfactory way of dealing with it? Will he prove to the House his perseverance and his administrative capacity by changing the target and going for full transferability?

Mr. Ennals

The Government are, of course, in favour of the transfer of pension rights on change of employment where this can be arranged. The difficulty is to put this into legislation. The hon. Gentleman underestimates the difficulties of compulsory transferability, and also underestimates the advantage of preservation, which does not now exist for many millions of workers.