§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerDoes the Attorney-General wish to move Amendment No. 13?
§ The Attorney-GeneralI beg to move Amendment No. 13, in line 11, leave out Clause 7.
I move the Amendment formally since it has been debated.
§ Mr. EyreOn a point of order. I am not sure what the Attorney-General means when he says that the Amendment to leave out Clause 7 has been discussed. The Attorney-General will recall that the Amendment to leave out Clause 7 was a consequential Amendment depending on the acceptance of new Clause 1, which the Attorney-General and a large number of Labour Members defeated—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is entering into a debate by way of a point of order. May I help him? Mr. Speaker's selection proposed that new Clause 1 could also take in for debate Amendment No. 13. Amend- 1892 ment No. 13 was also selected for a Division. Therefore, the debate on Amendment 13 has already taken place. It is only now a question whether the supporters of the Amendment wish to proceed to a Division.
§ Mr. EyreI appreciate that, and I apologise for being persistent on the point of order. It is merely that the selection obscures the reality of the situation. I am in no way in favour of, nor do I wish to be associated with, the Attorney-General's attempt to leave out Clause 7, which mutilates the Bill. It was put on the Notice Paper in my name only because it was a consequential Amendment to new Clause 1. The technical rules have resulted in an abuse of the Bill.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI hope that the hon. Member does not feel that he is being taken advantage of. I thought that he clearly understood what he was doing and what was the situation when Mr. Speaker proposed that Amendment 13 would be discussed. I do not want to truncate the debate on the Bill.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The only question for the Chair is whether the hon. Member and the right hon. Gentleman, whose names appear on the Amendment, wish to proceed to the Division. I understand that the Attorney-General has signified his wish to do so. If that is the case, I must proceed to put the Question.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI certainly wish the House to divide on my Amendment No. 13.
§ Mr. Eldon GriffithsOn a point of order.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI fully understand the difficulties of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Eyre), but there is no other way so far as the Chair is concerned.
§ Mr. GriffithsMy point of order is in no sense intended to question or disagree with your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or with Mr. Speaker's Rulings. It is to elicit some information for the convenience of the House.
As I understand the situation, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, 1893 Hall Green (Mr. Eyre) originally sought to move an Amendment covering the same matter as is now in his new Clause. Owing to the advice, correct or otherwise, of the Table Office, he has put the matter in the form of a new Clause. It was in no way his wish that it should be attached to Amendment No. 13.
I submit that since the House has already reached a decision on the new Clause and with it, for the purposes of discussion, Amendment 13, it must be out of order for Amendment 13 to be separately moved and voted upon.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI cannot allow this matter to be debated. I understand the difficulties of the hon. Gentleman. All hon. Members are responsible for whatever appears in their names on the Notice Paper. I must proceed to the Division.
§ Mr. Roy Roebuck (Harrow, East)rose—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI have ruled on this. The position is very clear. Unless any hon. Member has any new matter I will put the Question, as I am required to do by Standing Orders.
§ Mr. RoebuckFrom long experience, it is never my desire to fence with the Chair.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman is seeking to address me on that point, a point which, I have said, has been disposed of.
§ Mr. RoebuckI want some enlightenment, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI cannot help the hon. Gentleman any more.
§ Mr. EyreMay I place on record the fact that the Amendment which I put down was in my handwriting. The Table Office insisted on its appearing on the Notice Paper in this form.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe Table Office seeks to give advice to all right hon. and hon. Members, but once the Amendment is on the Notice Paper in the hon. Gentleman's name he accepts responsibility for it. He has put his point of view on record, and I must now put the Question.
§ Mr. Eldon GriffithsOn another point of order. I apologise for protracting this discussion. I know that this is a difficult matter for you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as it is for the House.
Am I to understand that you now propose that the House should divide on the Amendment to leave out Clause 7? Is that right, when the House this morning has had no discussion on it? That, surely, is a point of order for the whole House?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is seeking to debate my Ruling. The position is quite clear. The Amendment was selected for debate and discussed with new Clause 1. The only issue now is the Question, That the Amendment be made.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 63, Noes 16.
1895| Division No. 223.] | AYES | [1.40 p.m. |
| Alldritt, Walter | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Oram, Albert E. |
| Barnes, Michael | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Paget, R. T. |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Judd, Frank | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Kelley, Richard | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Carlisle, Mark | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Delargy, Hugh | Lestor, Miss Joan | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| English, Michael | Luard, Evan | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Ennals, David | Lubbock, Eric | Rees, Merlyn |
| Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Fowler, Gerry | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Ryan, John |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mackie, John | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford S.) |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Hooley, Frank | Marquand, David | Taverne, Dick |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Horner, John | Mayhew, Christopher | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Winnick, David |
| Hoy, James | Mitchell, R. c. (S'th'pton, Test) | |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Moyle, Roland | Mr. Donald Dewar and |
| Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Murray, Albert | Mr. Roy Roebuck. |
| Janner, Sir Barnett | ||
| NOES | ||
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Blaker, Peter | Hunt, John | Walker-Smith, Rt, Hn. Sir Derek |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Iremonger, T. L. | |
| Cordle, John | More, Jasper | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Crouch, David | Prior, J. M. L. | Mr. Eldon Griffiths and |
| Dean, Paul | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Mr. Richard Sharples. |
| Eyre, Reginald | St. John-stevas, Norman |
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe next Amendment selected is No. 15, with which I think it would be convenient to take Amendment No. 18, in page 5, line 15, leave out 'and the Secretary of State, acting jointly,'.