HC Deb 06 May 1969 vol 783 cc266-74
Mr. Speaker

We come now to the point of order which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) kindly deferred until Questions were over.

Sir G. Nabarro

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I reported to your office at 2.15 p.m. today that no copies of the Finance Bill were available in the Vote Office. As this represents a grave embarrassment to many back-bench hon. Members who cannot possibly memorise scores of pages of abstruse proposed legislation, and as an assurance was given on 29th April, in answer to a Written Question, that copies would be available in good time, I am making an appeal to you to try to make some emergency arrangements before the later stages of the Bill.

It is said, Sir, that the shortage of copies of the Finance Bill is due to an industrial dispute at Her Majesty's Stationery Office, but I remind you that immediately the Second Reading of the Bill is achieved today many hundreds of Amendments will be placed on the Notice Paper none of which back-benchers will be able to assess without ready reference to copies of the Bill which are not available. To facilitate my endeavouring to catch your eye during the debate today, I have borrowed the Librarian's copy of the Bill as being the only copy available.

Could you, Sir, take steps to cause emergency arrangements to be made forthwith for the printing of Amendments to the Finance Bill, if necessary on roneod sheets, or otherwise, but in a form which will assure that hon. Members have the Amendments during the next two days and certainly before the weekend, as we are told that there are to be two days in Committee of the Finance Bill on the Floor of the House next week and two days the following week.

Mr. Speaker

May I deal purely with the point of order? Before I do so, may I say that I was informed by the Deliverer of the Vote on 30th April that, owing to an industrial dispute, there might be a shortage of essential papers to the House.

Yesterday, I received a second letter in which the Deliverer of the Vote told me that the Vote Office yesterday had only 30 copies of the Bill left but that every hon. Member who has papers sent to him in the normal way has already received a copy of the Bill, and that in all 970 copies of the Bill have been distributed by the Vote Office.

In the Written Answer to which the hon. Gentleman refers, the Minister said that when the initial stocks had been sold supplies might be restricted due to an industrial dispute in Her Majesty's Stationery Office's distribution warehouse.

These are events beyond our control, but the House would wish me to take the opportunity of saying that the fault does not lie with the Deliverer of the Vote, to whose devoted work the House is indebted day by day.

Mr. Thorpe

Further to that point of order. While I accept the information that 970 copies have been distributed, the fact remains that many right hon. and hon. Members who have asked for copies of the Finance Bill, so that they may know what the House is debating this afternoon, have not been able to obtain copies. We are dealing with a Bill of 53 Clauses, 21 Schedules and 192 pages, and certain hon. Members have been unable to obtain copies.

No blame attaches to any official of the House, but those hon. Members who have been unable to obtain copies—I was unable to obtain a copy from the Vote Office, but have been able to do so from another source—are gravely embarrassed and respectfully seek your guidance and protection on this matter.

Mr. Speaker

I hope that nothing I said led the right hon. Gentleman to think that we were not in a difficulty. I pointed out that there were only 30 copies of the Bill left in the Vote Office by yesterday, but the House is not immune from the effect of industrial action. The only question for us now is that we should make the best of a difficult position.

Mr. Heath

With great respect, Mr. Speaker, while we appreciate the difficulties about having printed copies of the Bill, it is possible in a variety of ways to have an alternative presentation of the Bill by photostat or roneod copies. We are asking that steps should be taken during these difficulties to ensure that copies of essential papers are made available.

We ask for your guidance on whether it is the responsibility of the Leader of the House, the Services Committee, or officials of the House to ensure that this is done.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart)

It is right that I should intervene. As you rightly said, Mr. Speaker, the dispute has created the inconvenience which has been mentioned. More than 1,000 copies of the Bill have been issued and every hon. Member who asked for papers to be sent to him has received a copy.

I have just been in touch with the Vote Office. I admit that there are 600 copies outstanding, but this is not the fault of the Vote Office or of the House. The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is right in saying that there may be difficulties about Amendments on Committee. I will do all that I can, in conjunction with Mr. Speaker and the Services Committee, to try to make sure that information is available.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

We cannot pursue this much further.

Mr. Robert Cooke

Further to the point of order. I gave you notice, Mr. Speaker, that I wanted to raise with you a passage on page 277 of Erskine May, Chapter XIII, "Machinery of Parliament", line 13 of which reads as follows: All parliamentary papers are available to Members on application to the Vote Office … This is not so, and the Sale Office, the alternative source of supply in this building, has had no copies of the Finance Bill available since the day of publication.

We know that the Deliverer of the Vote has done his best to obtain copies of the Finance Bill from the Stationery Office warehouse, and that copies are there now awaiting collection, but the warehouse has refused to release copies to the Deliverer of the Vote because of a political dispute with the Government. No copies are available to hon. Members on demand and no copies are lying on the Table, as is customary when a Bill is to be debated.

The Government knew about this a week ago and have taken no steps to provide hon. Members with copies; yet they insist on putting the Finance Bill down today for Second Reading. I ask for your protection, Mr. Speaker, because we should not be asked to give a Second Reading to an invisible Bill.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The notice which the hon. Gentleman said that he would give me had not reached the Chair until I heard him speak. But all that he has done is to underline the seriousness of the issue. All that I have to decide is whether we go on with the Second Reading of the Bill today, and we shall he doing that.

The Leader of the Opposition was right to call attention to the difficulties we shall be faced with about Amendment Papers. We shall do what we can to meet the wish of the House. It would have been impossible to roneo today this enormous Finance Bill.

Mr. Thorpe

Further to that point of order. With great respect, Mr. Speaker, may we ask your guidance on what is a very important Parliamentary matter? No blame attaches to any official of the House, to those who are responsible for printing, or those who are responsible for the management of Government business. That is accepted. But we are in the difficulty that the House is asked this afternoon to give a Second Reading to a Bill which many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, of whom I am one, who have applied at the Vote Office for a copy of the Bill, have been told that it is not available.

Is it right that in those circumstances we should be asked to approve a Bill the details of which are not generally available to the House, and when, therefore, we are being asked to vote in the dark?

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must remind the right hon. Gentleman of my original statement. Nine-hundred and seventy copies were made available to Members who are on the usual posting list. The situation is difficult, but I see no reason for not taking the Second Reading.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I can take only one point of order at once. I hope that we can get on.

Mr. Woodburn

Can what is going on just now be described as a sympathetic strike?

Mr. Bessell

On a point of order. On a Finance Bill, with all its implications, and in view of the special importance the House attaches to financial matters, is there any precedent in the history of the House for discussing and voting upon a Bill which is not laid upon the Table, and to which many hon. Members do not have access?

Mr. Speaker

Order. I understand there is a precedent for discussing a Bill of which Members have not had a copy. I imagine that there is no precedent for discussing a Finance Bill of which all Members have not had a copy, but there is also no precedent for the circumstances which have led us to be short of copies of the Finance Bill today.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have quite a lot of business before us. Points of order will remove from somebody the opportunity of debating.

Mr. Heath

Further to the point of order. You have already recognised, Mr. Speaker, that this is a very serious matter. I understand that those right hon. and lion. Members who asked for all Bills to be sent with their Order Papers have received a copy of the Finance Bill, but that those who rely on collecting from the Vote Office Bills which interest them have in many cases not been able to obtain a copy of the Finance Bill.

If that is a correct statement of the position, does it not make it very difficut to proceed with a debate in which right hon. and hon. Members who have followed their normal procedure have not been able to get copies of the Bill?

I would ask you to rule, Mr. Speaker, whether or not in those circumstances we can proceed with the debate on the Bill, and would also ask what the justification for so doing is.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I hope that nothing that Mr. Speaker has said has minimised the gravity of the situation. The position is exactly as the right hon. Gentleman has said, that some hon. Members will find it difficult today to debate the Second Reading of the Bill because they followed their usual practice, and by following it did not obtain a copy of the Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman asked me to rule, and I rule that there is no reason why we should not proceed with the Second Reading.

Mr. William Hamilton

To assess the merits of this discussion, Mr. Speaker. could you tell the House how many Members received a copy of the Finance Bill? Presumably the Deliverer of the Vote would know the figures of Members who have the papers delivered. I do, and I suspect that a large majority of hon. Members do.

Mr. Speaker

I am advised that 600 copies were sent. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Order. Noise does not help us to discuss what is a very serious issue.

Mr. Galbraith

Further to the point of order. If copies of the Finance Bill have been published and are being withheld at the Stationery Office, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) said, is not it a breach of the privilege of the House when the copies actually exist and cannot be produced?

Mr. Speaker

Order. If the hon. Gentleman wants to put that point he must not make it in the form of a question, but must submit it to me in the ordinary way, and I will rule on it in due course.

Sir F. Bennett

Further to the point of order. May I seek clarification from you, Mr. Speaker. Are you really saying to the House that we shall have to proceed to the Second Reading of a Bill and listen to a Minister referring to Clause after Clause of a Bill which a number of us do not have before us, and that tonight we shall be expected to vote on a Bill that a number of us will not even have seen by then? Is this really the effect of your Ruling and the instruction you are giving to the House?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is merely suggesting that the Ruling is unjust.

Mr. Jopling

The present instance is a special case, because we are debating the Finance Bill. You told us, Mr. Speaker, that 600 hon. Members obtained copies of Bills in the normal way. But many hon. Members pass copies of the Finance Bill when they arrive to professional people outside the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Why not?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is advancing a perfectly serious argument.

Mr. Jopling

Many of us rely on advice from people outside the House. Many of us rely on the advice of our constituents, and many other hon. Members rely, for instance, on advice from trade union organisations—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. It does the House no good if one half of the House treats what is a very serious matter lightly.

Mr. Jopling

Of the 600 Members who received the Bill in the normal way, many will have parted with their copies in the expectation that they could obtain another from the Vote Office.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman can assume that Mr. Speaker, as an old Parliamentarian, is aware of that.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I hope that we can get on.

Mr. Howie

Further to the point of order. Could you tell us, Mr. Speaker, how many hon. Members have already put their names down to speak in today's debate? How many do you think have been prevented from preparing their speeches because of this misfortune?

Mr. Speaker

The last thing that one should ask Mr. Speaker to do is to think.

Sir Knox Cunningham

While appreciating your difficult situation, Mr. Speaker, in this matter—

Mr. Rose

One man, one Order Paper.

Sir Knox Cunningham

—and the Ruling which you have given, does it not make a mockery of Parliamentary democracy to debate a Bill which many Members have not seen? Would you accept from the Leader of the House a Motion to adjourn the debate until the Bill is put before hon. Members?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has added nothing new to what is a grave problem. I hope that we can now get on.

Mr. Thorpe

On a point of order. I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, that the House of Commons is being asked to vote for the Second Reading of a Bill the contents of which are not generally available to all Members of the House. The fact that it is urgent is proved beyond peradventure—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The application under Standing Order No. 9 will take place after the statement by the Minister of Technology.

Mr. Kirk

On a point of order. Even if it is right to deal with the Second Reading of the Bill, on which I have some reservations, there is a Motion in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to follow the Second Reading, a Motion which is absolutely incomprehensible unless copies of the Bill are available to hon. Members. May we have an assurance that that Motion, at any rate, cannot be moved?

Mr. Speaker

Order. We will deal with that when we get to it.

Mr. John Page

Further to that point of order. May we be informed whether the industrial dispute is official or unofficial?

Mr. Speaker

Order. Mr. Speaker is not prepared to comment on industrial disputes at all.

Mr. English

May we have an end to this, Mr. Speaker? One would think that the House had not passed Bills long before the days of printing, including Finance Bills.

Mr. Iain Macleod

Mr. Speaker, you have given a Ruling about today's business. I wonder whether, on a point of order, I might ask you to consider a matter which arises on the question of Amendments to which one or two hon. Members have referred.

As you know, Amendments to the Finance Bill are printed in the order in which they are received. It is, therefore, of some importance to hon. Members, particularly perhaps in view of the suggestion that this year the Bill should effectively be split, that they should be able, as soon as Second Reading is complete, to hand in to the Table the Amendments which can be accepted. Clearly, it conveys an advantage to those who have copies of the Bill, because their Amendments can then be in the proper form.

I am asking whether, in conjunction with the Leader of the House, arrangements can be made for some copies to be available, perhaps in the Table Office, so that hon. Members who, in the course of the day, plan to put in such Amendments immediately after Second Reading, will not be thwarted in their intentions?

Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Gentleman has a very practical suggestion which, obviously, my Department will following up at once.