HC Deb 26 March 1969 vol 780 cc1623-9
47. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what study she has given to the National Board for Prices and Incomes' Report No. 108; and whether, in view of the Board's recommendation that the 3½ per cent. ceiling should not apply to salary increases for senior executives in the nationalised industries on grounds of comparability, she will reject the Board's conclusions in the report and authorise the enactment of the agreement between the Electrical Contractors Association of Scotland and the Electrical, Electronic and Telecommunications Union-Plumbing Trades Union dated 18th December, 1968.

The Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mr. Harold Walker)

My right hon. Friend is considering the conclusions of N.B.P.I. Report No. 108 on Pay and Conditions in the Electrical Contracting Industry in Scotland. No final decision will be taken until the parties concerned have been consulted.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

While one recognises that top executives in the public sector ought to be paid the market rate for the job which they do and that the National Board for Prices and Incomes is more interested in them than in the salary structure of the electrical contracting industry in Scotland, would the hon. Gentleman not agree that it would cast a curious light on the Government's prices and incomes policy if comparability were regarded as justifying a 60 per cent. increase on a salary of £15,000 a year, but not——

Mr. Speaker

Order. Questions must be brief.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

—but not more than 3½ per cent. on a salary of £15 a week?

Mr. Walker

I have explained repeatedly the criteria set out in the Government's policy. The matters arising from the Report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on top salaries will be the subject of a statement in the House by my right hon. Friend as soon as possible.

Mr. William Hamilton

Can my hon. Friend say whether any chairman of a nationalised board has threatened to strike or get out of the industry if he and his colleagues do not get this increase? Will my hon. Friend give a firm assurance that this House will be allowed to debate the report before the Minister come to a decision, and will the Government allow a free vote—in which case these proposed salary increases will never be accepted?

Mr. Walker

I understand that the Question before the House refers to approval or disapproval of an agreement entered into between the Electrical Contractors Association of Scotland and the E.T.U. I do not think, therefore, that the subject of top salaries arises.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. Surely the Question refers to comparability between two reports. Therefore, is it not in order for the Minister to answer the question which has been put to him by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton)?

Mr. Speaker

It is always in order for a Minister to answer in the way in which he wishes to answer.

Mr. Younger

How can the hon. Gentleman defend the idea that the Government's prices and incomes policy is intended to favour lower-paid workers when agricultural workers get less than the Ford workers and when the whole lot get less than the heads of the nationalised industries?

Mr. Walker

It is not a primary function of the Government's prices and incomes policy to redistribute incomes. Social and fiscal policies have their rôle to play in this, and they are doing it.

Mr. James Hamilton

Will my hon. Friend agree that the comparability referred to between Scotland and England is not comparable and that, on the basis of what we have heard about the proposed increases for the chairmen of the nationalised boards, it makes the prices and incomes policy a nonsense and totally unacceptable to the lower-paid worker?

Mr. Walker

On the point about the report on top salaries, I have said that we are studying carefully the recommendations, and that my right hon. Friend will be making a statement to the House as soon as possible—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] As soon as possible—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] As soon as possible. I do not think that the House would want me to try to anticipate my right hon. Friend's statement.

On the point about comparability between England and Scotland, the report on the workers in the electrical contracting industry in Scotland points out that the board is not dealing with comparable situations. The two agreements—that applicable to England and that applicable to Scotland—are not comparable.

Mr. Shinwell

My hon. Friend has been asked a simple question. Can we have an assurance that, before any recommendation by the National Board for Prices and Incomes concerning those at the higher level is implemented by the Government, the House will have an opportunity to express its opinions about it? Is not that the important issue? Can we have a satisfactory answer from my hon. Friend, for a change?

Mr. Walker

My right hon. Friend knows as well as any hon. Member that that is not a question for me.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Is the Minister aware——

Mr. Shinwell

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. If it is not a Question for my hon. Friend, why was he answering it at all? My hon. Friend may not be aware of it, but when a Minister is unable to reply because he believes that the Question does not apply to his Department it is customary to indicate to which Department it applies.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The Minister answers in his own way.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the second time in two years that we have seen this shameful discrimination against Scottish electricians, who signed an agreement freely with their employers to have equal pay with electricians in England and Wales? Why cannot we have a display of urgency from the Minister? Is he saying that, as in the case of almost every other major dispute in Britain, until the men go on strike we shall not have a statement or any action from the Government?

Mr. Walker

I made it clear that my reference to a statement was in relation to and arose from Report No. 107 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on top salaries. I am answering and have answered questions about the electrical contracting industry employees in Scotland.

The hon. Gentleman refers to discrimination. If he reads the report, he will learn, as I said, that the board found that the two situations and the two agreements are not comparable. It is a matter of fact that the average earnings of the workers affected by the agreements are higher in Scotland than they are in England.

Mr. Burnett

Is my hon. Friend aware that the report on top salaries exposes the impossibility of legally enforcing a wage scale, no matter how fair, when it is coupled with a basic wage scale which is totally unfair?

Mr. Walker

I must say again that we are studying the report with great care and that my right hon. Friend will make a statement to the House as soon as possible. The question of a debate is one for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and the usual channels, and not for me.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

Will the Government ensure that their prices and incomes policy will not discriminate again against Scotland, as happened two years ago in the case of the Scottish local government officers as well as the electricians to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) referred?

Mr. Walker

The prices and incomes policy has not discriminated against Scotland, and so far as I have any responsibility for it, I will ensure that it will not in the future.

Mr. Orme

Is my hon. Friend aware that hon. Members are fascinated by the double standards adopted by the National Board for Prices and Incomes, in that it rejected the bank employees' increase and asked for its restriction and is now recommending an increase along these lines, using the word "comparability" which the Minister previously said must not be used in relation to the prices and incomes policy?

Mr. Walker

I can only hope that my hon. Friend will read the report on top salaries with care. He will find that the argument is not about comparability but about the salary structure within the nationalised industries.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, compared with what the National Board for Prices and Incomes has said in this case, the claim by B.O.A.C. pilots is a modest one based entirely on productivity?

Mr. Walker

I understand that the Question before the House is about electrical contracting workers in Scotland.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

First, if my right hon. Friend is to make a statement in the House, can we have an assurance that it will come before the Easter Recess, in time for us to have a debate on it? Second, will all other workers be treated in the same way and given a 60 per cent. increase if they can produce the same sort of arguments?

Mr. Walker

I have said that I cannot and will not try to anticipate my right hon. Friend's statement. But I can assure the House that she will make her statement before the House rises for the Easter Recess.

Sir C. Osborne

When the Minister makes her statement giving all the particulars, will the hon. Gentleman ask her to tell us how far the increase in salaries which is proposed, whatever it may be, affects the pensions of the recipients, so that they get a double increase? I think that the House should know how much the pension increase will be as well?

Mr. Walker

If the hon. Gentleman is talking about the recommendation about pensions in the report, presumably my right hon. Friend will deal with that point in her statement.

Mr. Dalyell

While I explicitly support the view that the leaders of publicly-owned industries must have comparaability of pay with leaders of privately-owned industry, can my hon. Friend say whether any calculations have been made about the post-tax situation of the leaders of publicly-owned industry should they get the proposed increase? If calculations have been made, what do they reveal?

Mr. Walker

I can only advise my hon. Friend to study the report, as we are doing.

Mr. Ogden

I must first declare my interest in this wider question as a member of the National Union of Mine-workers and a sponsored hon. Member. Is my hon. Friend aware that there will be wholehearted support in the industry for an increase in the salary of its chairman, which is richly deserved, since this will make it possible for 60 per cent. increases all down the line in the industry?

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Will my hon. Friend ask his right hon. Friend to consult the National Union of Mineworkers in Scotland for its opinion before any statement is made?

Mr. Walker

From the evidence of this morning's Press, people are not hesitating to express opinions up and down the country.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.