HC Deb 20 March 1969 vol 780 cc872-7

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £9,930,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, to defray the expense of the Regular Army Reserves (including other ranks to a number not exceeding 50,000), Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve (to a number not exceeding 80,000, all ranks) (including within these Reserves the Special Army Volunteer Reserve to a number not exceeding 2,400, all ranks) and Cadet Forces, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1970.

9.39 p.m.

Mr. Goodhart

We have only a little more than 20 minutes for this debate on the Reserve and Cadet Forces but one does not need long to consider this Vote and to ask whether we have our priorities right.

Last year the Army spent a net figure of rather less than one five-hundredth of our defence budget on the Army Reserve Forces. This year, when appropriations in aid are, fortunately not so great, we are still spending less than one two-hundredth of our overall defence budget on the Army Reserves.

In reply to the last debate, the Under-Secretary dwelt for some time on the education provided by the Army. We spent twice as much on army schoolchildren, for Service children overseas, as we did last year on the Army Reserves. We are all grateful that the run-down of the drill halls is starting. Where is it still going on, and is there a chance—I certainly hope that there is—that the amount that the Army expects to get this year, £1,600,000 from the continuing disposal of Territorial property, will not come up to expectations?

The Under-Secretary was almost lyrical in his reference to the boys' units that he has visited. If the flow into the boys' units is to continue, it is essential that the cadet forces in the schools should continue to operate effectively. I am glad that the grants for the Army Cadet Force and the Combined Cadet Force show no reduction, indeed a slight increase, for the coming year.

I see that the provision and maintenance of accommodation for the cadet force has been cut almost in half. When one turns to Appendix 8 for an explanation, all that I can say is that it is the least informative Appendix in a list of not very informative appendices. Why is it that the provision and maintenance of accommodation for the cadet forces shows this drastic drop? I hope that this is a book-keeping exercise and does not represent a real slash in our effort devoted to the cadet forces. If we cut down on this and are put in jeopardy again, a valuable aid for Regular recruiting is lost. As one looks at the Vote as a whole all one can really say is that its size and the amount of energy now devoted to the Reserves surely underlines the fact that when one is faced with an absolute famine of reserves for the Army, it is total folly to try to economise on our reserve forces.

9.43 p.m.

Miss Harvie Anderson

I should like to re-emphasise my belief of the need for adequate reserves. It depresses me inordinately to recognise that this is not a belief shared by the Government. One of the saddest things in the Defence Estimates is the rundown of T.A. accommodation. I have always believed that once accommodation is sold it is very difficult to begin again, and resuscitate at short notice, as I am sure we shall have to do in the foreseeable future, a reserve force of great strength and considerable magnitude.

As far as I can see from the Vote, the Regular Reserve has no liability for training. We have extended the period of Reserve commitment recently, and it would seem that those who ceased to serve in 1963 and are now on the Reserve must be, to say the least, considerably out-of-date in their knowledge of the modern and very fine equipment which the Army now has. This is one reason why the Regular Reserve is not what it may appear to be on paper. With no trained reserves, this leads to the added consideration of referring to as Government spokesmen have done recently, the Sixth Infantry Brigade as a reserve, This seems curious when it could only be deployed in something like ten days and apparently have nowwhere to live. Therefore, the circumstances in which it could be used as a reserve are very limited.

Finally, given a highly trained and efficient professional Army in Europe today, if it has not adequate reserves then it must have adequate air cover, and it may be that here is the most serious feature of the whole consideration of the European scene in relation to the Army.

9.45 p.m.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins

I wish to make three brief points. First, I want to reiterate what my hon. Friends have said about the drill halls. There has been anxiety in the part of the world from which I come, Derbyshire and the East Midlands, because people are not clear what the future holds for them while existing drills halls continue to be disposed of. I would support the plea made to the Under-Secretary of State that we do not dispose of any more drill halls. They are of tremendous value, and I am sure that they will be of even greater value in the future.

My second point relates to the voluntary cadet force. One detects a growing lack of enthusiasm in our schools for the force. I find it difficult to make this point without being too damning, because I should like to try to encourage as many boys in schools to join the voluntary cadet force, especially the Army side of it. It seems however, that there is a growing disenchantment in schools with the cadet forces as they exist at present. It is probably due to a lack of imagination in the way that they are run at that level, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will do what he can through local Territorial officers and Regular officers in the area to encourage enthusiasm and the spirit of adventure in these cadet forces. They are a reservoir of future recruits to the Army in years to come.

My last main point concerns the Reserves. The remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) are extremely valid. The Regular Army Reserve does very little training. There are few complete units. I agree that there are medical, ambulance and specialist units, but there are no "teeth" units in embryo in the Reserve Army. The Reserves are filling gaps in the existing Regular Army. This is greatly to be deprecated, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will look at this matter again.

In Vote 2, Subhead B, there is an item in respect of travel and travelling allowances. Presumably this sum allows for the TAVRs to get to their places of training. Does it also include the transporting of units and men in the summer to the units to which they are affiliated in Germany?

Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles

I wish to raise only one question. Can the Under-Secretary of State tell us whether the Army has any contingency plans for the protection of vulnerable points in Great Britain in any emergency? If so, how are they manned, with no provision for TAVR III?

9.49 p.m.

Mr. Boyden

One difficulty with the TAVR Votes is that they are scattered over several heads. The actual figure of expenditure is over £20 million, so that the percentage worked out by the hon. Gentleman is not quite accurate. For example, pay and travel, £6.75 million, is in Vote 2 B; civilians with units, caretakers and so on, Vote 4, £4 million; fuel, petrol and so on, Vote 6, £0.4 million; equipment, clothing, Vote 7, £3.7 million; and rations are on the Navy Vote. P.S.I.s and Regular Army personnel are not included in the figures, and they come to about £2.75 million, and they will be in the Army anyhow. The figure is rather higher than it appears; it comes out at £20 million of £600 million, which may not satisfy the hon. Gentleman, but is rather better than his figure.

The reason why the cadet figure is lower is that while the T.A. centres were being sold provision had to be made for cadet huts. This expenditure has now declined. Last year's figures were swollen by this special provision, which is no longer required. I agree that we need to encourage cadets and we should do all we can to this end. As was said yesterday, the R.A.F. has recently had a great deal of success in reviewing its cadet organisation. Without committing myself, it is quite possible that we shall have something to learn from that, and we may decide that it would be desirable to have a review to see whether improvements can be made.

Mr. Ramsden

When I heard yesterday about the changes proposed by the R.A.F. in its air squadrons at the universities, I wondered whether this would have implications for the O.T.C.s. It would be a relief if the hon. Gentleman would assure us that they are not affected.

Mr. Boyden

I did not have in mind the O.T.C.s; I had in mind cadets. We have been considering this for some time and we thought recently that it would be appropriate to look at the cadets. We considered the O.T.C.s 18 months ago and some changes were made, but at the moment there is no proposal to look further at them. It may well be desirable to look further at the cadets.

The hon. Lady asked about the Reserves, and I want to draw attention to the position of the A.G.R. with its 15,000 Reservists who are likely to be called up in grave emergency. These are nearly all specialists who do a civilian job which interlocks with their military job, such as medical people, those concerned with pay and other specialists with good military training. So they are not so much out of touch with military activity as she was suggesting.

There are T.A. formed units, and I referred to these in the recent Army Estimates debate. I then suggested that hon. Members would be welcome at the training activities and camps of these units, where they would get the feel of the unit working as a unit, with unit spirit and fitting in with the Regular soldiers.

I was asked about the disposal of T.A. centres. The main disposal is almost finished. They have not all been sold, but they are in the process of being sold. The number now available, including the 150 for TAVR III, is 405, and they are better distributed to fit in with the new proposals to increase the Reserves than they were in the past. Perhaps the best way of dealing with this would be for me to write to the hon. Gentleman giving the dispositions of the centres.

Mr. Goodhart

Before the Under-Secretary sits down, may I ask him another question? I appreciate that he may not be able to answer this off the cuff. What proportion of those now serving in the TAVR II and in the defunct TAVR III have not had some previous Service experience with the Regular Forces?

Mr. Boyden

I cannot answer the right hon. Gentleman off the cuff. To the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) I should say "Yes".

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That a sum, not exceeding £9,930,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, to defray the expense of the Regular Army Reserves (including other ranks to a number not exceeding 50,000), Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve (to a number not exceeding 80,000, all ranks) (including within these Reserves the Special Army Volunteer Reserve to a number not exceeding 2,400, all ranks) and Cadet Forces, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1970.