§ 9. Mr. Maurice Macmillanasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how much he expects will be brought in by the earnings-related contribution to the National Health Service proposed in the White Paper, Command Paper No. 3883, in the first year of its operation; and whether he will make an estimate of the annual yield in subsequent years.
§ Mr. CrossmanI would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) on 3rd February.—[Vol. 777, c. 31–2.]
§ Mr. MacmillanSince that Answer was singularly uninformative and since all we know is that an element of about 2 per cent. of the contribution is involved, cannot he give the House some idea of how the taxpayer's bill for the National Health Service is likely to be affected by his proposals before we debate them?
§ Mr. CrossmanSpeaking in advance of the debate on the White Paper, I believe that this matter will be discussed. In any event, the White Paper deals predominantly with pensions and not with short-term benefits. I will be making a statement later about the details of the short-term benefits, including the question of National Health Service contributions.
§ 11. Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what he estimates to be the increases in the total sum paid by employers and employees, respectively, in 1972 and the total sum at present paid in contributions by employers and employees on the basis that the scheme outlined in Command Paper No. 3883 came into operation in that year.
§ 12. Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how 16 much he estimates will be paid out in wage-related pensions during the first and second year of the scheme outlined in Command Paper No. 3883; and by how much during these years will the contributions paid by contributors exceed that paid under the present scheme.
§ Mr. CrossmanAs to the increase in employers' contributions attributable to the new scheme, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer given by my hon. Friend to the hon. Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) on 3rd February.—[Vol. 777, c. 29.] On similar assumptions, and making no allowance for contracting out, insured persons' contributions at the outset of the new scheme would be about £1,415 million a year. This might represent an increase in the range of £200 to £250 million a year. It is estimated that in the first and second year of the new scheme the extra cost of earnings related pensions, but excluding the other immediate improvements of the scheme, will be about £5 million and £10 million respectively.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he is seriously contemplating the question of contracting out, he must have in mind a possible figure for the loss of revenue deriving from contracting out based on the scale to be anticipated? Will he now give the figures on that basis?
§ Mr. CrossmanIf the right hon. Gentleman wishes to have a calculation made of the amount of loss of contribution for, say, each one-quarter of a million contracted out, I will seek to supply him with the information if he will table a Question.
§ Lord BalnielIf the scheme introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) was, in Socialist eyes, a swindle, why has the right hon. Gentleman made himself the croupier for a very much larger scheme containing in it a crooked element so that the harder one works the less is the value of one's contributions?
§ Mr. CrossmanI have a feeling that the hon. Gentleman is anticipating events which will take place more suitably on Thursday.
§ 30. Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what record he intends should be kept of the amount of employers' contributions paid in respect of their employees' earnings in excess of the upper limit of £33 a week proposed in his scheme for national superannuation.
§ Mr. CrossmanEmployers' contributions will need to be recorded only to the extent necessary for accounting purposes.
§ Sir B. Rhys WilliamsWill employees ever get any benefit from these contributions, or will they simply be confiscated?
§ Mr. CrossmanI suggest that that is another of those remarks which the hon. Gentleman may be able to make in a longer speech on Thursday.
§ 31. Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Social Services in what way he proposes in his plans for national superannuation to enable contracted-out pension schemes to meet the obligation to give beneficiaries increases dependent on the general level of prices and earnings.
§ Mr. CrossmanWhether there should be such an obligation is one of the matters I shall consider in the light of consultations with representatives of occupational pension schemes.
§ Sir B. Rhys WilliamsIf the benefit of increases arising from the biennial reviews is extended to people contracted out as well as those contracted in, how does the right hon. Gentleman rebut the charge that the taxpayer will be subsidising people in the private schemes?
§ Mr. CrossmanThe hon. Gentleman had better wait to see the results of the negotiations before he makes his criticisms.
§ 33. Mr. Huntasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will undertake to publish in a White Paper his proposals for the terms of contracting out from the State scheme proposed in the White Paper, Command Paper No. 3883, when he has reached agreement with representatives of occupational pension schemes and others concerned.
§ Mr. CrossmanUntil my consultations are further advanced it would be premature 18 to decide on the form in which the proposals will be published; but I will keep the hon. Member's suggestion in mind.
§ Mr. HuntIn the meantime, will the right hon. Gentleman state whether it is his view that these occupational pension schemes have an increasingly important rôle to play within social security?
§ Mr. CrossmanI would have thought that if the hon. Gentleman had digested the White Paper he would have seen that, at least on this point, he and I are in agreement.
§ Mr. BarnettWould the Minister say whether the present pension scheme for hon. Members meets the criteria for contracting out?
§ Mr. CrossmanThat is another question, of which I will need very special notice.
§ Lord BalnielCan we have a categoric assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that the terms of contracting out will be written into the Bill before it is presented to the House?
§ Mr. CrossmanI would like notice of that question. Perhaps the hon. Member can put it down for next week, for a considered Answer, because a lot will depend on what he means by "the terms".
§ 34. Mr. Huntasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what estimate he has made of the number of people who will pay less in contributions under the proposals in the White Paper, Command Paper No. 3883, and of the number who will pay more, on the basis that the scheme is introduced at the present levels of earnings.
§ Mr. CrossmanNone, Sir. No figures can be given of the actual numbers who will pay less and more when the new scheme starts. This will depend, apart from the change from the present to the new system of contracting out, on whatever changes are made in present-scheme contributions between now and the target date of 1972.
§ Mr. HuntIf such figures were available, might they not somewhat reduce the supposed electoral attractions of the Government's scheme?
§ Mr. CrossmanIt would all depend on what would happen between now and 1972, because if there is to be, as there might be, an uprating, an increase in contribution, it would reduce that amount by which the contribution would be increased on the introduction of the scheme.
§ 38. Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he proposes to start discussions with representatives of occupational pension schemes and others concerned on the terms of contracting out from the new State scheme proposed in the White Paper Command No. 3883.
§ Mr. CrossmanExploratory discussions on some aspects have already started with a view to evolving detailed proposals on which more formal consultations can be based. I hope these can begin soon after Easter.
§ Mr. Wolrige-GordonCan the right hon. Gentleman say, in view of the replies to similar questions, what would be the attitude of the Government should these discussions prove to be abortive or unsatisfactory?
§ Mr. CrossmanI am not one who looks forward with such blithe unconcern to what I think a most unlikely disaster.