§ Mr. Buchanan-SmithI beg to move Amendment No. 8, in page 5, line 3, at end insert:
(5) Where a local authority purchase the land and themselves undertake, or otherwise secure. the demolition of the buildings in pursuance of this section it shall be their duty to secure that any persons who may be displaced from residential accommodation on the land and for whom no suitable accommodation is otherwise available on reasonable terms will be provided with such accommodation before the displacement.I move this Amendment fairly quickly, because the Minister is aware of our views. Clause 1 lays responsibility on a local authority to consider alternative housing accommodation in pursuing the purposes of the Bill. However, when we come to Clause 4 the local authority is given powers to secure the demolition either itself or through another agency. The new subsection that I propose to Clause 5 puts the onus directly on the local authority to provide alternative accommodation for those who are displaced as a result of action under Clause 4 followed by action under Clause 5. I want an assurance of full help from local authorities in rehousing those who are displaced.We had an argument about this in Committee on an earlier Clause. My point is the responsibility of the local authority towards those who may be owner-occupiers or tenants of private landlords. In Committee, the Minister 155 of State said that private landlords should operate their own reallocation schemes for the rehousing of their tenants. Rehousing is vitally necessary under the Bill if the improvements that we wish to see carried out are to take place. However, the Minister of State is glossing over some of the difficulties of rehousing owner-occupiers and tenants of private landlords.
Many practical problems arise. I have discussed this point with the Property Owners Association in Glasgow. Whilst it has considered and would like a scheme of reallocating houses, it thinks that there are great practical difficulties. I do not intend to go into the matter in detail this evening. We discussed some of the problems in Committee, particularly the problems of the smaller landlords with, perhaps, one or two houses.
The Amendment puts a specific duty on the local authority, I appreciate that this is not as wide as the point that I raised in Committee. The Clause refers particularly to houses that have been purchased by a local authority or demolished by it or by some other party on instruction. I appreciate that the problem of rehousing does not refer to nearly as wide a context as the point that I raised in Committee under Clause 1. However, it still raises a point of substance. We must be much more certain about how we provide alternative accommodation for owner-occupiers or tenants. For this reason, I should like these words to be written into the Bill so that the onus is laid on local authorities to rehouse those who are displaced.
Mr. Edward M. TaylorIf the Amendment were made, would it apply only to houses purchased in tenement properties, or would it apply to the rehousing of those in properties which are subject to demolition on the initiative of a local authority but which still rest officially in the ownership of the persons concerned?
What is the Minister's interpretation of "suitable"? There are instances, particularly in Glasgow, where persons living in private accommodation have their houses subject to clearance or demolition and are made an offer of rehousing which is not suitable, in that it is a substantial distance from their place of work, from where their friends live, or from where they have made their homes for anything up to 50 or 60 years. Does 156 the Department advise local authorities that efforts should be made to rehouse people in an area of the same character as that in which they live and not too far from where they now live?
In the event of suitable housing being offered to an owner-occupier, what does the Bill provide as to demolition costs? Only this morning I brought a case to the attention of the Minister. This is not something which happens once in a blue moon. The Minister may have heard of Glasgow and of Cathcart. In Stanmore Road and Holmlea Road there are specific cases of houses which have come down. These houses are in owner-occupation, and the occupants have put their life savings into them. The money is lost. The owners get a bill for the demolition of their own houses. In the case which I have raised with the Minister this morning, the costs involved in respect of one house in Stanmore Road amount to £839. The normal procedure is for the local authority to put a real lien on the land concerned. Will this apply to the taking-over of houses? Will it be the general practice for local authorities not to charge for demolition but to put a real lien on the future development possibilities of the land?
§ 9.30 p.m.
§ Dr. Dickson MabonI am not blaming the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) in any way, but I am sorry that he did not serve on the Standing Committee with us, because we discussed many of these matters thoroughly. If the hon. Gentleman had served on the Committee, or had read our proceedings in Committee, he would know that we discussed this matter extensively.
The choice is simple. One method is to rely on the present means which we have adopted. I thought that S.D.D. Circular 63/1968, which we published following the Kay Committee Report on the allocation of council houses, received general acceptance from most hon. Members as being a good circular. There is, as the alternative, the suggestion in the Amendment of doing it by legislation. I accept that this is a somewhat slenderer approach than that which we discussed in Committee, but it brings us back to the question whether we should put into legislation the general principle which is embodied in the Amendment.
157 In Clause 1(2) we have accepted the general principle that local authorities must ensure that there is suitable accommodation available for people displaced by slum clearance action. It would be a piece of impertinence on the part of the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) or myself to attempt to define "suitable". "Suitable" is a highly useful word implying a great deal of discretion on the part of the local authority. It is not one that could possibly be written into statute or even into a circular, because it would be bound to offend a family in some particular area. We therefore leave it to the discretion of the local authorities.
The working party of local authority officials, with which we discussed the matter in great depth, was, like us, of the opinion that it would be wrong to introduce a statutory rehousing obligation into the Measure. This applies all the more in Scotland not only because we are introducing the concept of full market value compensation for owner occupiers but also because in Scotland we are determined, unlike our friends in England because they have a different problem, to go in for much more demolition than they intend to do. Our provisions are designed more to demolish than to improve. While we do not in any way disregard the advantages of improvement, we certainly accept that there has to be demolition.
Mr. Edward M. TaylorThe Minister has referred to demolition and market value compensation. In some cases the demolition charges exceed the market value of the houses. Could he say what happens to the demolition charges?
§ Dr. MabonNo, not at this stage. I want to stick to the subject of housing. We are debating the issue of housing, albeit qualified by this Amendment, in a narrow sense. If we were to import a statutory obligation of rehousing, it would make difficult the process of getting on with the housing areas. The purpose of the Bill is to improve housing and demolish slums. Therefore, anything which stands in the way of that process is dangerous to the objects of the Bill, which both sides of the House support.
§ We do not want arguments about rehousing as such. Somebody might want to be rehoused in a certain place, and that might delay the conclusion to the discussion about full market value. The converse might also be true.
§ While we are most anxious to secure full market value compensation for owner-occupiers, we do not want to import a statutory obligation which would mean delay in getting ahead with the housing treatment areas. I hope the hon. Member will realise that we cannot simply accept this Amendment, which, I agree, is modelled on Clause 36(3) of the English Bill and is related, quite properly, to the improvement areas according to the English idea, because in Scotland it would offend the position in the two ways that I have described; first, it would be a failure to recognise that demolition is a crucial part of our system of dealing with housing treatment areas; and, second, we have agreed readily to full market value compensation.
§ Mr. Buchanan-SmithI should like to respond to the Minister of State. I feel that this comes down to a question of balance of judgment to a great extent. I appreciate that there are reasons—and I do not argue with them—as to why we have not written into this Bill this obligation on the local authority. I agree that we do not want to write anything into a Bill which may delay the achievement of demolition.
However, I must ask the Minister to bear in mind the opposite point of view, that if there are going to be difficulties in rehousing particularly those who are private tenants and owner-occupiers, he will get opposition in other directions unless this obligation is fulfilled. I appreciate that the general obligation is backed up morally by the Scottish Development Department in its circulars, but we feel that the balance falls in such a way that the obligation should be written into the legislation. For that reason I ask my hon. Friends to support the Amendment.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 105, Noes 150.
161| Division No. 301.] | AYES | [9.35 p.m. |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Biggs-Davison, John | Brewis, John |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Bruce-Gardyne, J. |
| Biffen, John | Body, Richard | Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hawkins, Paul | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, w.) | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Hiley, Joseph | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hirst, Geoffrey | Scott, Nicholas |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Sharples, Richard |
| Chataway, Christopher | Holland, Philip | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Clark, Henry | Hornby, Richard | Silvester, Frederick |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kitson, Timothy | Speed, Keith |
| Costain, A. P. | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Stainton, Keith |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.) | Lane, David | Stodart, Anthony |
| Dean, Paul | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Tapsell, Peter |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. w. F. (Ashford) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Lubbock, Eric | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | MacArthur, Ian | Tilney, John |
| Doughty, Charles | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Maude, Angus | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Mawby, Ray | Waddington, David |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Emery, Peter | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Walters, Dennis |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Monro, Hector | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Farr, John | Montgomery, Fergus | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Foster, Sir John | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Murton, Oscar | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Goodhart, Philip | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Grant, Anthony | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Wright, Esmond |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Wylie, N. R. |
| Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Pounder, Rafton | |
| Gurden, Harold | Prior, J. M. L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Pym, Francis | Mr. Anthony Royle and Mr. Reginald Eyre. |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | ||
| NOES | ||
| Alldritt, Walter | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Manuel, Archie |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mapp, Charles |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell.) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Barnett, Joel | Hannan, William | Maxwell, Robert |
| Beaney, Alan | Harper, Joseph | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mendelson, John |
| Binns, John | Haseldine, Norman | Millan, Bruce |
| Blackburn, F. | Heffer, Eric S. | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Moonman, Eric |
| Booth, Albert | Hooley, Frank | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Boyden, James | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Newens, Stan |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Ogden, Eric |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James | Orbach, Maurice |
| Buchan, Norman | Huckfield, Leslie | Orme, Stanley |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hunter, Adam | Paget, R. T. |
| Chapman, Donald | Hynd, John | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Pentland, Norman |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Kenyon, Clifford | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Lawson, George | Rankin, John |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Leadbitter, Ted | Rees, Merlyn |
| Delargy, Hugh | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Dewar, Donald | Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Dobson, Ray | Lee, John (Reading) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Doig, Peter | ||
| Driberg, Tom | Lestor, Miss Joan | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Edelman, Maurice | Lomas, Kenneth | Silverman, Julius |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Loughlin, Charles | Slater, Joseph |
| Ensor, David | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Small, William |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Fernyhough, E. | MacColl, James | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | MacDermot, Niall | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Forrester, John | McGuire, Michael | Symonds, J. B. |
| Fowler, Gerry | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Taverne, Dick |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Garrett, W. E. | Mackintosh, John P. | Tinn, James |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Maclennan, Robert | Tuck, Raphael |
| Gregory, Arnold | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Urwin. T. W. |
| Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | Whitaker, Ben | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Wilkins, W. A. | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Wallace, George | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Woof, Robert |
| Watkins, David (Consett) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) | |
| Wellbeloved, James | Williams, W. T, (Warrington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES. |
| Wells, William (Walsall, N.) | Willis, Rt. Hn. George | Mr. Charles R. Morris and Mr. Ioan L. Evan. |