§ Mr. Gordon CampbellI beg to move Amendment No. 18, in page 17, line 15, after second 'in', insert 'such'.
§ Mr. SpeakerIt will be convenient to take also Amendment No. 19, in page 17, line 15, leave out
'although not in a state of serious disrepair and'and Amendment No. 20, in page 17, line 19, at end add—(5) For the purposes of this section a house shall be deemed to be in a state of serious disrepair if, although it is not unfit for human habitation, substantial repairs are required to bring it up to a reasonable standard having regard to the criteria in section 2 of this Act.
§ Mr. Gordon CampbellThis is a group of three Amendment which go together. The group has two objects. I will take first Amendment No. 20, because that has the main object of giving guidance on what shall be for the purpose of the Clause interpreted as a state of serious disrepair. The whole Clause is dependent upon an understanding of that phrase, which appears in the second line. There is nothing at present in the Clause to indicate what is a state of serious disrepair. The proposed addition in Amendment No. 20 indicates that, although the house is still habitable, substantial repairs are needed to reach a reasonable standard having regard to the criteria which are listed in Clause 2 for the tolerable standard of a house.
We recognise that the tolerable standard which has been defined by those criteria in Clause 2 relates to improvement and situations where amenities may be lacking and that Clause 24 is concerned with disrepair rather than with the improvement of houses and the lack of amenities. Nonetheless, because the criteria in Clause 2 have to be accepted and understood by all those who are to operate the Bill when it is enacted, we believe that by referring to them and bringing them 174 into the Bill it will give valuable guidance to those who must make a judgment arising from the Clause. We have borrowed some words from the English Bill which we believe are helpful.
The second objective concerns the other two Amendments, Nos. 18 and 19. We seek to improve subsection (4). That subsection adds an extra point to the Clause, but, to put it mildly, it is not felicitously phrased. Briefly, what it says is that although a house is not in a state of disrepair, it shall be deemed to be in a state of disrepair. This will make it difficult for those who have to judge whether the house is in a state which will then cause the Clause to come into effect.
In Committee the Minister seemed to admit that there was some shortcoming in the drafting of the Clause. We accepted his challenge to try to improve it and to make it easier for those who will have to operate the provision and to interpret it. I am sorry that the Government have not made an attempt in an Amendment of their own to carry out what we in Committee were seeking to do, but I believe that the Amendments which we have tabled, or something like them, if accepted by the Government, will be helpful to those who have to administer the Bill later. At the moment the Clause may cause difficulties later on if there is a dispute. We hope that there will not be too many disputes, but on a subject like this there are bound to be. Anything we can do now to make clearer what we mean will help later on.
§ Dr. Dickson MabonI appreciate the effort by the Opposition to seek to improve the Bill by importing these new subsections. Although I shall criticise them, it is not because I lack appreciation of their efforts. It is easy to knock things down rather conconstructively to improve them.
There are two defects in the Amendment. I do not blame the hon. Gentleman for borrowing the English phrase, but it does not fit, because in the Bill we are repealing the provisions as that phrase applies to them, while in the English Bill they are retained. It is therefore appropriate that it should be so phrased in the English Bill. We should have to do a little more surgery and a little more adding than this if we were to accept the use of the English phrase as such.
175 Furthermore, to take the reference in Amendment No. 20 to Clause 2, the reference will be inappropriate in that it would provide a severe—the property owners would argue a too severe—test for this purpose. If a house has only a year or two of life left, is it fair to insist that it should be brought up to tolerable standards? This is almost self-defeating. We do not like houses in this condition. It is right and proper that we might want an owner to make the roof watertight and to do some repairs, but not extensive repairs. To put a damp course in a house with two years' life is a waste of private and public money. To put in the further subsection would be quite inappropriate and unfair both to the local authority and to the landlord.
§ Mr. Gordon CampbellParagraph (b) of subsection (1) deals with the age of the house. That must be taken into account.
§ Dr. MabonThe minute one applies this kind of test, one realises what one will have to observe.
What is the alternative to the hon. Gentleman's Amendment or to any Amendment which the Government might have drafted? It is to consult the people concerned. I thought that that part of the hon. Gentleman's speech was quite right. The people concerned are the sanitary inspectors, local authority officers, those concerned with the Building Acts, those experienced in the sheriff courts, and the sheriffs. They are the people who are involved in the practical problems. The sheriff is well used to hearing and assessing evidence and judging appeals under Section 27.
All my advice is that it is better to leave the matter as it is. Someone once said, "It is difficult to define an elephant, but you recognise it the minute you see it ". That is the sort of argument which has been put to me. One can argue cases
§ of disrepair and of serious disrepair and make a distinction which has been understood by inspectors who have operated the Public Health Acts for a long time. My own Chief Sanitary Inspector is a distinguished former President of the Association in Scotland, and his advice is that it is better to leave this matter for practical interpretation and to the experience of the sheriff than to amend it in a statute. I have tried to interpret this, and I have been unsuccessful. That is why I have moved no amendment.
§ This Amendment is defective in two serious ways. We could make an attempt to correct the first one, but the other is too severe to put into the Bill. I would counsel hon. Gentlemen opposite that it is too hard to do it in the Bill. The matter should be left as it is. It has been like that for some time now, and it works reasonably well. If the hon. Gentleman has any better suggestions to make, no doubt we can look at the matter again in the other place. But it would be a mistake to make this Amendment.
§ Mr. Gordon CampbellThe hon. Gentleman has recognised that there is a problem here, and we are disappointed that he has made no attempt to draft an Amendment with a view to putting it right.
Clearly it is a matter of judgment. If we followed his advice that it is impossible to describe an elephant but one knows it when one sees it, we would do very little of the work that this House has to do. It is our job to help those who have to carry out our enactments. We believe that something along the lines of the Amendment should be in the Bill, and I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to support it.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 93, Noes 143.
177| Division No. 302.] | AYES | [10.27 p.m. |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Carlisle, Mark | Doughty, Charles |
| Biffen, John | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Chataway, Christopher | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Clark, Henry | Emery, Peter |
| Body, Richard | Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Eyre, Reginald |
| Brewis, John | Corfield, F. V. | Farr, John |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Costain, A. P. | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) | Currie, G. B. H. | Foster, Sir John |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Dean, Paul | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Goodhart, Philip |
| Grant, Anthony | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Speed, Keith |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Montgomery, Fergus | Stodart, Anthony |
| Curden, Harold | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Hawkins, Paul | Murton, Oscar | Tilney, John |
| Heald, Rt. H[...] Sir Lionel | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Hiley, Joseph | Page, Graham (Crosby) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Holland, Philip | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Waddington, David |
| Hornby, Richard | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Walters, Dennis |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Pounder, Rafton | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Kitson, Timothy | Prior, J. M. L. | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Knight, Mrs. Jill | Pym, Francis | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Lane, David | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Royle, Anthony | Worsley, Marcus |
| Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Russell, Sir Ronald | Wright, Esmond |
| Mac Arthur, Ian | Scott, Nicholas | Wylie, N. R. |
| McNair-Wilson, Michael | Sharples, Richard | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Maude, Angus | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Mr. Bernard Weatherill and |
| Mawby, Ray | Silvester, Frederick | Mr. Hector Morris. |
| NOES | ||
| Alldritt, Walter | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Ashton, Joe (Passetlaw) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Hannan, William | Newens, Stan |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Harper, Joseph | Orbach, Maurice |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Orme, Stanley |
| Barnett, Joel | Heseldine, Norman | Oswald, Thomas |
| Beaney, Alan | Heffer, Eric S. | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Paget, R. T. |
| Binns, John | Hooley, Frank | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pentland, Norman |
| Booth, Albert | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Boyden, James | Huckfield, Leslie | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hunter, Adam | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Hynd, John | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Buchan, Norman | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Ryan, John |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Sheldon, Robert |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Chapman, Donald | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Htill, W.) | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Kenyon, Clifford | Silverman, Julius |
| Conlan, Bernard | Lawson, George | |
| Dalyell, Tam | Leadbitter, Ted | Slater, Joseph |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) | Small, William |
| Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.) | Lee, John (Reading) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Symonds, J. B. |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Taverne, Dick |
| Delargy, Hugh | Lomas, Kenneth | Tinn, James |
| Dewar, Donald | Loughlin, Charles | Tuck, Raphael |
| Dobson, Ray | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Doig, Peter | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Driberg, Tom | MacColl, James | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | MacDermot, Niall | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Eadie, Alex | McGuire, Michael | Wallace, George |
| Edelman, Maurice | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Ensor, David | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mackintosh, John P. | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Fernyhough, E. | Maclennan, Robert | Whitaker, Ben |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Forrester, John | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Fowler, Gerry | Willis, Rt. Hn. George | |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mapp, Charles | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Garrett, W. E. | Marks, Kenneth | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Woof, Robert |
| Gregory, Arnold | Maxwell, Robert | |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Mendelson, John | Mr. Charles R. Morris and Mr. Ioan L. Evans. |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | ||
| Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Millan, Bruce |