HOUSING ACCOMMODATION AND CAMPING SITES IN RESPECT OF TRAVELLING HOUSEHOLDS

HC Deb 30 June 1969 vol 786 cc131-49

(1) It shall be the duty of every local authority to consider the needs of travelling households in their district with respect to the provision of housing accommodation and of properly serviced camping sites.

(2) Every local authority shall from time to time cause to be made such a survey or inspection of their district as may be necessary for the performance of the duty imposed on them by this section.—[Mr. Buchanan-Smith.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay)

With this Clause I suggest that we discuss Amendment No. 36, in 'Title, line 17, after tenancy; ', insert: 'to make provision of housing accommodation and camping sites in respect of travelling households:'.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

At the end of last year the Liaison Committee for Scotland of the Gipsies and Travelling People's Council raised with Scottish Members the problem of the harassment of travellers and the difficulties they had in finding places to settle. Many of us recognise the difficulties thrown up by this intractable problem, but it is easy and perhaps convenient to forget them because in relation to Scotland as a whole these problems may not be so great.

The matter has been more closely drawn to our attention recently by the census carried out by the Scottish Office of travelling families in Scotland. I pay tribute to the work of the Scottish Office and to the work of those involved in the local authorities. I am glad to see the Minister of State genuinely smiling for the first time this evening. This encourages us. All of us who have a knowledge of local authorities appreciate the tremendous amount of work which went into the preparation of this census and into the analysis which was carried out by the Scottish Office. The results thrown up greatly increase our knowledge of the problems of travelling families.

8.15 p.m.

In March it was found that 1,500 people in 300 families had to follow the roads in Scotland throughout the year. Those 300 families contain 650 children under 16. Nearly 30 per cent. of those families live in tents. In the winter time, there is a concentration of these families in particular areas—in Lanarkshire, as the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) knows, and in Perthshire, where I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) has been concerned.

It is important that the census should be kept up-to-date so that we have knowledge of the dimensions of the problem. Thus, subsection (2) enjoins the local authority "from time to time" to cause to be made such a survey or inspection of their district as may be necessary for the performance of the duty imposed on them by this section. I welcome the Department's proposal to conduct another census in mid-August. That will provide details of the summer picture and fill the gaps in the March census.

As well as recording the number of families, the age groupings of children, whether the families were living in tents or caravans, and whether they were on permanent or temporary sites, the census inquired of the families whether they wanted to continue travelling. Under 20 per cent. of the families who answered the questions wanted to continue travelling. Eighty per cent. wanted to settle in one spot. Four out of five of those who wanted to settle stated a preference to settle in a house rather than in a caravan on a site.

In Circular 38/1969 the Scottish Development Department urged local authorities to take temporary action in regard to such families—first, in the matter of housing accommodation, and, second, in the provision of caravan sites. The new Clause would impose a definite duty on local authorities to consider the needs of travelling households. Consonant with our support of the Government's urging local authorities to consider the provision of temporary accommodation and also to seek a permanent solution to the problems of travelling families, we seek to impose a duty on local authorities to consider the needs of travelling households, first, in respect of housing accommodation—this is important, since four out of five families who want to settle want to do so in a house—and second, we seek to impose on local authorities the duty to provide camping sites.

I accept that the question of the provision of camping sites may not be so great in the long term. As the Circular points out, local authorities already have power under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960, and the Countryside Act, 1967, to provide caravan sites. In addition to caravan sites, what is important is the provision of properly serviced camp sites with hard standings, where needed, with toilet accommodation and washing facilities, because 30 per cent. of these families live in tents.

This awkward problem poses many questions for local authorities. It poses deep social problems in regard to the families. It poses problems of education. Difficult though the problem is and small in relation to the total population of Scotland, this is a problem which we in this House must not brush aside. Therefore, by drawing attention to it by means of this Clause I hope that we shall have shown that we are concerned about it. At the same time, I hope the Government take the opportunity to say what they believe can be done permanently to provide for these families, and if they need to supplement the powers which they already have, I hope they will take advantage of the Clause to provide a permanent solution.

Mr. James Hamilton (Bothwell)

I welcome this proposed Clause, although with reservations. It is very easy to become emotional about this problem. As a Member of Parliament I have been bedevilled with this sort of problem in my constituency, where these travellers move from village to village, and the police have been very tolerant with them. Representations have been made by myself, by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) and others to the Scottish Office, which has been most attentive.

I am sure that the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) is aware that local authorities already have the power to provide the necessary sites and to service them for these travellers. However, when these people are asked whether they are prepared to use the sites we find that the answer is invariably in the negative. These people come to Bellshill frequently. It is very easy to suggest that we in such places should be Christian and tolerant, provided that they are not in one's own back garden. When one is bedevilled with this kind of situation, one's feeling is likely to be quite different.

I have received large deputations on this subject. Only the other week there was a television programme pin-pointing the sort of thing that was happening in Bellshill. Once these people are moved from Bellshill they go to another village in my constituency, Mossend, where they camp beside a church. Representations were made to me by local residents because people going to this place of worship found all sorts of things going on and heard language which one would not expect from Christians. The worst feature of all is that these people were leaving human dirt in these areas. This is a fact with which I am personally conversant. When these travellers were moved from Mossend they went to Bothwellhaugh which is also in my constituency.

It will be appreciated that when one is directly concerned with this problem one does not become emotional about it but looks at it in a realistic fashion. I welcome this proposed Clause so long as local authorities are prepared to use the existing legislation under which they are able to prepare camp sites. The trouble is that there is no guarantee that the travellers will use these sites.

It is easy to suggest that these people should be given special consideration for housing. It is not so difficult in areas which do not have the housing problems that exist in some parts of my County of Lanark, including Rutherglen. In parts of Lanark some married couples have been waiting seven or eight years before they can get a house. Are these travellers to be considered before people who have been on the housing list for six or seven years? If one is prepared to say that they should be given preference, then one is obviously running into tremendous difficulties. I should like to know whether the Government are prepared to finance the local authorities to construct these camp sites and to offer subsidies for housing. If so, I shall be in favour of this new Clause.

The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns referred to the problem of schooling. This is a serious problem because the children of these travellers move from one school to another and we have to give special consideration to this fact. If they are prepared to stay in certain localities where people are tolerant—particularly the police and the local authorities—the local authorities in those areas must receive special consideration from the Government. I therefore ask the Minister of State to answer these questions to my satisfaction before I can support this Clause.

Mr. Ian MacArthur (Perth and East Perthshire)

My hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) reminded us that this Bill deals primarily with large issues but that that fact should not be an excuse for turning our backs on the very real problem of the travelling families in Scotland.

I have a lot of sympathy with the views expressed by the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton). It is very easy to become emotional and carried away by the plight in which one sees many of these families living. I would add to what he said that if the behaviour of some of the travelling families is as reprehensible as he suggests—and I do not dispute it—that may be the result largely of the pattern of life which these people lead. Their movement is not always voluntary. Sometimes a movement is imposed upon them by people pushing them away and harrying them about. There is very often a wish to get rid of the travelling family and the small encampment which can be a nuisance and very often is an eyesore. But that should not cause us to say that nothing can be done about the problem. or that travelling families should not be helped. They need help, and I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for moving the new Clause and calling attention to a big human problem.

8.30 p.m.

My hon. Friend referred to the survey conducted on 19th March. I am very glad that it was carried out, for it produced four significant findings. First, it revealed a population of travelling families in Scotland of about 1,500 people, which is about 300 families. Second, it showed that two out of three of those families have children under 16. This points to the related problem of educating those children as they move from place to place. Third, the survey showed that the families tend, as we knew already, to settle in the winter and to travel in the summer. Therefore, it is right that there should be another survey in August so that we have a balanced picture of the whole scene. It is possible that the March survey underestimated the number of families, and I am glad to think that the second survey may remedy that and give us a better impression of the true picture.

Finally, the survey showed that about eight out of 10 of the families say that they want to stop travelling. This means that there are 240 families that wish to settle permanently somewhere, and the figure may be higher if the March survey under-estimated the number of travelling families. One presumes that those 240 families wish to take up a normal settled life, living in a house, with neighbours beside them.

Much of the problem is centred on Perthshire and the House may be in- terested to know what has been happening there to try to cope with the problem. As the hon. Member for Bothwell reminded us, local authorities already have quite substantial powers to provide suitable camping sites. I welcome the decision of the Joint County Council of Perth and Kinross to acquire a piece of land near Perth which will provide a permanent camping site for travelling people. However, the acquisition of the land may take a long time.

The local problem now, therefore, is to provide a temporary site which can be in use before the next winter, when the families settle down again. One is being provided at Ruthvenfield in my constituency. The work being done on the site is a remarkable demonstration of the humane and understanding care which many people have for their fellow creatures in difficulty. A Church of Scotland Minister, the Rev. Dennis Sutherland, has special responsibility for travelling people. He and a local welfare group are clearing the site and building a road. The work is due to be finished tomorrow. Among their helpers are seven boys fom the Easterhouse area of Glasgow, who have been giving their time willingly and generously. They are also giving their energies. I believe that they shifted 400 tons of rubble in one day last week.

The group does not consist only of people coming in to help. In charge of the group is a travelling man, the Secretary of the Scottish Gipsies and Travellers Council. Lord Hughes visited the scheme last Thursday, and I am sure that his visit was greatly appreciated.

This voluntary work is splendid, but voluntary effort can achieve only a limited amount. A special responsibility should rest on the local authorities. I believe that the Perth Town Council and the County Council are deeply aware of this. I have already spoken about their provision of a permanent site. There is also a need for houses for those travellers who wish to settle down.

Two points must not be lost sight of. One is the need to distinguish between the genuine travelling family and the fellow-traveller, the bogus claimants who are not travelling families in the true sense of the word.

Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington)

I should be interested to know what the hon. Gentleman means by a bogus traveller. Could he define this a little more precisely?

Mr. MacArthur

What I mean is that there has been a certain overlap between the travelling families and itinerant people of a different kind, such as travelling furniture buyers from Ireland in vans, who remain in Perthshire at this time of the year and try to cash in on the sentiment and feeling there is for the genuine Scottish-based travelling family.

The second point which must be borne in mind is that one should not give so much priority at a time always of housing difficulty that travelling families unduly jump the queue. It is right that they should have their own places on the housing waiting lists but there is no case for giving them undue preference so that residents in a town are moved down the list because of the sympathy we naturally feel for these travellers. What is important is that they should be treated equally with other people, and I welcome the fact that, in Perth, travelling families are put on the local waiting list in exactly the same way as any other family. Indeed, rather more than 20 of the families have been re-housed in this way. But that is not the pattern generally followed, I understand.

For too long, these travelling families have been ignored. They have been harried and pushed about and, although they have for some time given rise to the sort of problems outlined by the hon. Member for Bothwell, it is right to take note of the difficulty they have been facing, and we should recognise that many of them who are presenting a sizeable social problem now wish to settle down among their fellow men. It is right that we should help them to do that.

Mr. James Davidson (Aberdeenshire, West)

I support the new Clause, but with certain reservations. I have taken an interest in this problem for some time. I first wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, on 5th February, 1968, which is well over a year ago. In his reply he said: As I expect you know, Mr. Lubbock's Bill is likely to be a temporary measure only. But if and when it can be shown that we have a problem in Scotland of sufficient magnitude to justify legislation, we can consider dealing with it in a separate Scottish Bill. Shortly after that letter, my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) introduced a Bill—later, the Caravan Sites Act—which applied to England and Wales and not to Scotland. I put down an Amendment to try to make it applicable to Scotland and perhaps it is a little surprising, in view of the enthusiasm today, that I did not get any support for it, except from Members of my own party. On Second Reading, I said: I cannot quite make out the reasons for the opposition to including Scotland. I believe that most of the opposition comes from the local authorities, not from the Scottish Office itself. There is no real basis for it. It appears to me to be just simply a kind of inertia, a reluctance to take on new responsibilities, a desire to be left undisturbed. I went on to say: I disagree very strongly with the view which has apparently been expressed by the County Councils Association. I do not believe it has looked at the matter very thoroughly, and I shall do my best to see, before any permanent legislation is introduced, that Scottish counties do look into the matter. I made a point which can well be made again today in relation to this new Clause. I said: The Protection from Eviction Act. 1964, applies to Scotland. Considerable anomalies may be raised in the position of caravan dwellers. They will be protected in England but they will not have protection in Scotland. My hon. Friends and I believe that permanent legislation could be introduced apposite to Scottish conditions. I repeat that I believe that the reluctance to include Scotland in the Bill is really due to inertia and lack of interest among Scottish local authorities, when we have clear evidence of Scottish conditions which will show the Scottish Office that Scotland should be included."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1968; Vol. 759, c. 1986–9.] Since then, earlier this year a survey was conducted with the good will of the noble Lord whom I have mentioned. Its results were interesting. I have to admit that my own county of Aberdeen is not one of those particularly troubled by this problem, which is confined mainly to Lanarkshire, Perthshire and Renfrew-shire. But that is because—and this is the important point—for some time the local authority in Aberdeenshire has taken the view that the travelling people should be integrated into the community. It has pursued that policy all along the line with considerable success. It has set an example which other authorities troubled with the problem of travelling families without proper sites should follow. Authorities should make a stern and determined attempt to integrate these people into the community.

I have certain reservations about the new Clause because it is extremely vaguely worded. It proposes to impose a duty on local authorities, but it does nothing which is not already done by the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960. For that reason, in its present form the Clause might be something of an embarrassment, because it is a Clause without definitions and without specific provisions.

The Government surveys are much to be commended. I understand that another is to be carried out in August, and that should give more complete figures. One interesting point which emerges from the surveys is that the vast majority of the travelling families want to settle down. Only a tiny proportion want to go on travelling indefinitely. The large proportion want to settle down, to be integrated, to send their children to school and to feel that they have become part of the community.

In this connection, there may be a need to encourage local authorities to introduce or devise some type of intermediate housing, as is done in Aberdeenshire, where travelling families may get used to the idea of living on a settled site in one place before moving into accommodation of the standard of that allocated to normal applicants for local authority housing. I say that in no spirit of disparagement. If a family has followed a tradition of travelling for decades, or centuries, it is obviously a big step for it suddenly to enter the community and live in permanent housing to which it has not yet adapted its way of life.

There is an interim need for the police to be encouraged to exercise leniency, particularly in respect of the Trespass (Scotland) Act, 1865, until the problem is more adequately dealt with. There have been occasions when travelling families have been moved on in the middle of the night, in bad weather and so on. This is unnecessary adherence to the letter of the law and in certain areas the police should be encouraged to show leniency in this respect.

The travellers who came to see me raised another matter, which was of minor importance. When they apply for local authority housing, it sometimes happens that when the news comes through that they are on the short list, or are likely to get a house, they cannot be found because they have moved on. A special supplementary register with a forwarding address, so that a travelling family may be contacted if it has applied for local authority housing, is needed, so that if it moved on, it does not lose the house by the authority's failure to be able to contact it.

These are genuine considerations which were raised with me by the travelling families, and I hope that the Minister of State will take them into account, both in his reply tonight and in the future Scottish Office policy towards travelling families in Scotland.

8.45 p.m.

Mr. Lubbock

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) for reminding the House that at the time of the Caravan Sites Bill last year he sought to extend its application to Scotland. At that time I, too, wrote to the Scottish Office to find out its view. I wrote to the Minister of State, and, apart from sending me a copy of the letter from Lord Shepherd, already quoted by my hon. Friend, he said: We are, of course, very ready to look at any evidence which you may have in relation to Scotland. I did not have much evidence at the time, it was not available. As a result of this study it seems that all the information on which legislation might be based is now in the hands of the Scottish Office. I hope that we shall not have something as vaguely worded as this new Clause. As the Minister of State rightly said, what we need ultimately, as we cannot apply the caravan sites Measure to Scotland, is a separate Act dealing with the position in a comprehensive manner. We shall need to impose duties on local authorities, rather than merely give them powers to do certain things, which as my hon. Friend has said, they can already be doing under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960.

It could be argued that they have the power not only to provide sites but also to carry out any additional surveys that may be necessary. Clause 24(2) of the Act says: …a local authority shall have power to do anything appearing to them desirable in connection with the provision of such sites …". That would include the surveys mentioned. I hope that, armed with this information, the Scottish Office will be fairly prompt in introducing legislation to cope with this problem. I suggest that it should apply the same kind of responsibilities to local authorities in Scotland as we have done in England and Wales in the Caravan Sites Act 1968, and that at the same time it should clear up the powers which local authorities have there, which are far more extensive than the Highways Act 1959, and other provisions dealing with the occupation of land by gipsies in England and Wales.

As my hon. Friend has said, the Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865 is being applied extremely harshly in certain areas, particularly in the county of Lanarkshire, where the police are exercising their powers under that Act in a manner which most of us would think rather unreasonable.

Mr. James Hamilton

The hon. Gentleman can take it from me, because I do not want the good name of Lanarkshire to be besmirched in any way, that the authorities and the police there have been extraordinarily tolerant with these people.

Mr. Lubbock

That may be the hon. Gentleman's opinion, but it is certainly not that of the travelling people, who have come down here to see some hon. Members. No doubt they came down to see the hon. Member. It was represented to me by those who came that in some circumstances—I am not saying invariably—the police had used these powers rather too harshly. Perhaps the Minister of State can comment on that.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is getting rather wide of the debate on the new Clause, which deals with housing. I was trying to give him a little latitude but he has taken it too far.

Mr. Lubbock

I mentioned it only because one or two other hon. Gentlemen had referred to this Act. We cannot entirely divorce the provision of accommodation for the travelling people from the power which local authorities may have to deal with the unauthorised occupation of land.

The hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) spoke about the genuine and bogus travellers. I sincerely hope that the Scottish Office will make no such distinction. It would be highly invidious, and very difficult, to ask local authorities to make any kind of judgment as between genuine and bogus travellers. It would be uncivilised and unfair to sections of the travelling people if we were to make any attempt to distinguish between them in this way. It is like people who say that we should do everything possible for people of Romany blood and nothing for those who have no such blood in their veins or who have adopted the travelling life in recent years. I hope that that point will not be pursued and that, whatever duties we lay upon them, local authorities in Scotland will cater for the needs of all travelling people and not merely for the needs of a small section.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West rightly said that the vast majority of these people want to settle down on sites and send their children to school. He thinks that this would best be done by providing intermediate housing. That is one solution which, in England and Wales, has been put forward by Hampshire. But we cannot lay down a hard and fast rule. What we can say is that our experience shows that travelling people who have lived in tents are generally willing to go into this kind of halfway accommodation, but that those who possess substantial assets, like caravans and lorries which they use in the pursuance of their business, do not wish to go into intermediate accommodation because it means disposing of those assets which are their means of earning a livelihood. Therefore, I hope that whatever solution is adopted in Scotland, it will not be too rigid and that it will allow local authorities to choose between the two solutions.

Last year, the associations of local authorities in Scotland pretended that there was no problem. They did not believe that legislation was necessary, and they resisted any suggestion that the Scottish Office might be involved in this matter. But, after the publication of this Report, which shows that the proportion of travelling people to total population is as high in Scotland as it is in England and Wales, there is a very substantial case, particularly when one takes into account the under-remuneration which I believe is mentioned in the Report.

I therefore hope that the Scottish Office, following this debate and the publication of the survey, will promptly initiate discussions with the local authority associations in Scotland, and that we shall have a comprehensive Bill in the next Session dealing with the subject.

Mr. John Rankin (Glasgow, Govan)

I think I can say that all my hon. Friends are thoroughly seized of the problem which we are considering. There has been some criticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton), but those of us who know the area to which he referred and the problems which are created for him and for those who live there will appreciate what he said.

I have been drawn to my feet by one or two suggestions from the hon. Members for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) and Orpington (Mr. Lubbock). We are presently considering a Bill dealing with housing in Scotland. As a Glasgow Member—and Glasgow has 80,000 people on the waiting list—I know that any suggestion about easing the regulations governing the allocation of houses to people who need them must be considered with great care. In this Bill we have been doing everything possible to tighten up the regulations governing the construction of houses, and the repeal—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The new Clause does not deal with regulations for the construction of houses. It deals with itinerant travellers.

Mr. Rankin

I realise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I was treading on thin ice, like the two hon. Members before me, but I thought that it would bear me—only one person—when it had already carried two. All I wanted to say is that from the remarks which I have just heard, there seemed to be a tendency to ease the regulations governing the construction of these temporary houses for dispossessed persons.

I welcome any step that will help them, but it would have to be taken most carefully lest it weaken some of the extra precautions which we have been taking, in the process of putting the Bill on the Statute Book, to make houses of a better type for those who are now waiting on them in Scotland but do not belong to this section of dispossessed people in our country.

We have every sympathy with them and we want to do our best for them—

Mr. James Davidson

I think that the hon. Member has slightly misinterpreted me. If I may give an example of what the local authority in Aberdeenshire has been doing, I referred to the intermediate—not temporary—housing. The local authority is merely using partly renovated houses, which would otherwise have been condemned as temporary accommodation, of the type to which I referred.

Mr. Rankin

Very well. I will not pursue that. At the same time, nevertheless, a permanent place in the housing structure would be given to this inferior type of housing. That can become a danger to the housing future of a city like Glasgow, where there is a list of 80,000 people all waiting for houses. I leave it at that. It is simply a warning. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Minister of State may have a word in support of what I have said.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I much appreciate the comments which have been made. If I may say so without offence to anyone, I thought the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) put his finger best on the problem. This is not the kind of subject which should be solved in a Bill of this kind. It is of such a substantial and complex nature that it deserves a solution much more comprehensive than the rather innocent little new Clause on which this necessary but extensive debate has been held.

The hon. Member for Orpington has somewhat inherited the mantle of the late Norman Dodds—a fine mantle of a fine man—and has kept up the arguments. I remember being here during the passage of the English Bill when this was discussed. The hon. Member knows that the Government were concerned about it and made a takeover, which he welcomed. I shall not comment on the position regarding England and Wales.

At the time when we had discussions, we in Scotland were genuinely of the view that we did not have a problem. We had had no representations apart from those of the hon. Member and my former hon. Friend Norman Dodds, whose death we all regretted at such an early age and who had campaigned for such a long time.

I say right away to the hon. Member for Orpington that there is no intention on our part in Scotland to try to classify the travellers and give preference over one section as against another. I am sure that the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) did not imply that in what he said. He may have mentioned that certain people, in coming to Scotland on business, may want to get in on the census. That would be quite proper. They are not in that sense the people to whom we are referring here.

9.0 p.m.

The Scottish Committee on Travellers—and I will give particular mention to Miss Helen Fullerton, Mr. Charles Douglas and the Rev. Denis Sutherland—have worked with us in the Scottish Office very much since this matter was raised on the Floor of the House by different hon. Members including the hon. Gentleman the Member for Orpington and also my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) who is very concerned about this matter, and asked us, the House may remember, to carry out some kind of survey.

The hon. Gentleman the Member for Orpington is slightly wrong when he says we have all the facts. We have not. The census of March has revealed some very interesting facts about the travellers. For example, the number of families living in tents in Scotland is 30 per cent. as compared with 4 per cent. in England and Wales. Perhaps that leads on obviously to the next fact, that the numbers of persons wanting to settle down in permanent homes is 80 per cent. in Scotland, and there are only 20 per cent. who wish to continue travelling. But we do not know all the facts. After all, the survey which was done was, so to say, a winter survey. We hope to carry out this further survey in August, which will, perhaps, reveal a bit more about the numbers of travelling people and the nature of their wishes. Some may have permanent homes, and may travel only in the summer, in which case we really could not make a sudden jump to the solution suggested by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson). We could not have a preferential list. Those who remember the Kay Report will remember the argument about allocating council houses, and they will realise that this would be preferential treatment on a very formidable scale, not only in terms of numbers but of breaching a principle.

Mr. James Davidson

I think the hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood me. I did not suggest a preferential list but a special list, so that travellers who move on can afterwards be located. I did not mean a preferential list whatsoever. It has happened that when travelling people wanted local authority housing and could not then have it they moved on, and the local authority could not catch up with them and tell them when housing had since become available for them. They could not be located because they had moved on. I think a special list of such people is needed.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

Some of the protesters against that would be a family who lived in my constituency and moved to Gourock and were disallowed from being included in the Gourock list because they had moved across the boundary. I have had specific knowledge of this sort of thing in my own constituency. The matter of residence would have to be discussed between the two authorities concerned. It is not easy to come to a quick solution about how we should provide permanent homes for these people, or whether there should be some kind of intermediate stage.

The Scottish Office has dismissed none of these solutions, all of which have difficulties in them. What we are trying to do is to carry out a survey, and, on the basis of that survey—not regular surveys but this additional survey in August—see if we can come to conclusions about specific things we might do. That would involve legislation. We should have to discuss this with the local authorities.

I would not accept, by the way, either, that we should make that sort of stern attempt, as suggested by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West, to have them settle down, because some of these travel ling people just cannot, cannot in their natures, settle down. I would take the point of the hon. Member for Orpington that many of them, by the nature of their businesses, for that matter, ought not to settle down in permanent homes.

Therefore, we have to take into account the possibility of providing sites along the lines suggested by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth and East Perthshire in relation to Perth County Council. My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State has been to Perth and will visit Lanarkshire to discuss the matter with the local authorities, and he will be conducting other visits to other areas which may be affected, in order to see what can be done.

The liaison committee, I should tell the House, is not anxious to have this new Clause adopted. Nor does it agree that legislation can be brought in at the drop of a hat. It wants the problem properly studied. It wants the good will of the local authorities, which is very important. Of course, if there is legislation we shall have to look at the question of assisting local authorities, and that will mean discussion with them in considerable depth, because the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) is perfectly fair, that if travelling people want, and quite rightly want, to be considered more properly by society and to be given the facilities which are presently denied to them, they in their turn must undertake to observe social obligations and not be a nuisance to people in the offensive way which my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell has described.

I should like to think that only a minority of the travelling people are of this nature and so get the bad name which they do in some parts of the country. It is easy for those who are not witnesses of travelling people in their areas to be sanctimonious, if that is not too harsh a word, about the un-Christian behaviour of other people in parts of the country which are visited by the travelling people.

On the subject of trespass, a great deal of good will is necessary from all concerned, not just the police. We must impress upon the travelling people, local authorities, the police and others that we want a solution to the problem and we need their good will in this difficult period until we carry out the survey and settle the general policy in Scotland. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to accept that the policy for Scotland need not necessarily be the same as the policy for England and Wales. It must fit the facts of the study rather than rehearse what has been attempted quite boldly and rightly in England.

I ask for the new Clause not to be pressed, and I give an assurance that in the meantime we are asking local authorities to consider the possibility of permanent rehousing for those who are regular residents in their areas, even if they do some travelling, and to consider an interim solution for next winter in the form of more pitches which could be used lawfully by the travellers provided that they would be fair to the local community and would not cause ally of the troubles that have been witnessed in some parts of the country.

On the basis of that assurance, I ask that we do not proceed with the new Clause but wait for a more comprehensive provision which the Government will consider with the local authorities.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

This has been an interesting debate. In reply to what was said from the Liberal benches, I would say that whilst I appreciate that the new Clause does not provide a perfect answer to the problem, the remarks made ware somewhat grudging. We on this side of the House have raised this subject at the first opportunity when there has been proper knowledge of the problem, and to that extent the debate has served a useful purpose.

I appreciate, as do my hon. Friends, the need to continue with the survey, to have the survey in our hands and to have full consultation with the local authorities. I have been impressed by the concern shown by the Minister of State to reach a solution to the problem and, if need be, to introduce legislation later. In view of his assurances, which I welcome, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the new Motion.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.