§ Further Amendments made: No. 18, in page 2, line 21, leave out 'Travel Association' and insert 'Tourist Authority'.
§ No. 22, in page 3, line 3, leave out 'Travel Association' and insert 'Tourist Authority'.—[Mr. William Rodgers.]
§ 6.30 p.m.
§ Mr. William RodgersI beg to move Amendment No. 23, in page 3, line 3, after 'power', insert:
'by virtue of this subsection'.
§ The Amendment need not detain the House for long because it is another Amendment proposed by the Government in response to a view expressed in Committee. That view was that whereas, rightly or wrongly, the British Tourist Authority was to be responsible for promotion overseas, it was most important that there should be no misunderstanding that its powers would preclude all kinds of organisations from carrying out their own promotion as and when they felt it to be necessary. This would be true, for example, of local authorities some of which have powers under local Acts to incur expenditure on advertising promotion which are not confined to activities in the United Kingdom. It would apply also to transport authorities in the public and private sectors, hotels and other organisations. The object of the Amendment is simply to make the situation doubly clear, and I hope, on those grounds, that it will be acceptable.
§ Mr. BlakerI agree with the interpretation of the Minister of State about the purposes of the Amendment. It is made in response to points which my hon. Friends and I made in Committee, and we welcome the proposal.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendment proposed: No. 24, in page 3, line 11, leave out subsection (3).—[Mr. William Rodgers.]
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 219, Noes 147.
1281| Division No. 287.] | AYES | [6.33 p.m. |
| Albu, Austen | Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Dickens, James |
| Allaun, Frank (Salfort), E.) | Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Dobson, Ray |
| Alldritt, Walter | Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Doig, Peter |
| Anderson, Donald | Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Driberg, Tom |
| Archer, Peter | Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Dunn, James A. |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Dunnett, Jack |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Eadie, Alex |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Coe, Denis | Edwards, Robert (Bllston) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Coleman, Donald | Edwards, William (Merioneth) |
| Ellis, John | ||
| Barnett, Joel | Concannon, J. D. | English, Michael |
| Beaney, Alan | Conlan, Bernard | Ennals, David |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Ensor, David |
| Binns, John | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Dalyell, Tam | Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) |
| Blackburn, F. | Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) | Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Faulds, Andrew |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Fernyhough, E. |
| Booth, Albert | Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Finch, Harold |
| Boston, Terence | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Boyden, James | Dempsey, James | Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Dewar, Donald | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Brooks, Edwin | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) |
| Ford, Ben | Lee, John (Reading) | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Forrester, John | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Fowler, Gerry | Lipton, Marcus | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Freeson, Reginald | Lomas, Kenneth | Pentland, Norman |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Loughlin, Charles | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Luard, Evan | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Lubbock, Eric | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Probert, Arthur |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Rankin, John |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | McBride, Neil | Richard, Ivor |
| Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | McCann, John | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | MacDermot, Niall | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy |
| Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Macdonald, A. H. | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Maclennan, Robert | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hamling, William | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Rowlands, E. |
| Hannan, William | McNamara, J. Kevin | Ryan, John |
| Harper, Joseph | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Manuel, Archie | Sheldon, Robert |
| Hazell, Bert | Mapp, Charles | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Marks, Kenneth | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.) |
| Henig, Stanley | Marquand, David | Slater, Joseph |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Small, William |
| Hooley, Frank | Mayhew, Christopher | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mendelson, John | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Mikardo, Ian | Symonds, J. B. |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Millan, Bruce | Taverne, Dick |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Hunter, Adam | Molloy, William | Thornton, Ernest |
| Hynd, John | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Murray, Albert | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Janner, Sir Barnett | Neal, Harold | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Newens, Stan | Wallace, George |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Oakes, Gordon | Weitzman, David |
| Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | O'Malley, Brian | Wellbeloved, James |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Orbach, Maurice | Whitaker, Ben |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Oswald, Thomas | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Padley, Walter | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Judd, Frank | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Kelley, Richard | Paget, R. T. | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Kenyon, Clifford | Palmer, Arthur | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Winnick, David |
| Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Pardoe, John | |
| Lawson, George | Park, Trevor | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Mr. Charles R. Morris and |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Dr. M. S. Miller. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Crouch, David | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Cunningham, Sir Knox | Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Dance, James | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Dean, Paul | Hastings, Stephen |
| Balniel, Lord | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Doughty, Charles | Hill, J. E. B. |
| Bell, Ronald | Drayson, G. B. | Hordern, Peter |
| Eden, Sir John | Hunt, John | |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Biffen, John | Emery, Peter | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Eyre, Reginald | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Farr, John | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) |
| Blaker, Peter | Fisher, Nigel | Jopling, Michael |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) | Gibson-Watt, David | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Braine, Bernard | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Glover, Sir Douglas | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) | Goodhart, Philip | Longden, Gilbert |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Goodhew, Victor | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Burden, F. A. | Gower, Raymond | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Grant, Anthony | McMaster, Stanley |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert | McNair-Wilson, Michael (W'stow, E.) |
| Chataway, Christopher | Gresham Cooke, R. | Maginnis, John E. |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest |
| Costain, A. P. | Gurden, Harold | Marten, Neil |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Maude, Angus |
| Mawby, Ray | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Prior, J. M. L. | Tilney, John |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Pym, Francis | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Monro, Hector | Rees-Davies, w. R. | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Russell, Sir Ronald | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Sharples, Richard | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Nott, John | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Onslow, Cranley | Silvester, Frederick | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian | Speed, Keith | Worsley, Marcus |
| Osborn, John (Hallam) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. | Wright, Esmond |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Summers, Sir Spencer | Younger, Hn. George |
| Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Tapsell, Peter | |
| Peel, John | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Percival, Ian | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) | Mr. Jasper More and |
| Peyton, John | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) | Mr. Anthony Royle. |
| Pounder, Rafton | Temple, John M. |
§
Amendment made: No. 24, in page 3, line 11, to insert:
(3) In discharging their functions under this section the English Tourist Board, the Scottish Tourist Board and the Wales Tourist Board shall have regard to the desirability of fostering and, in appropriate cases, co-operating with organisations discharging functions corresponding to those of the Boards in relation to particular areas within the countries for which the Boards are respectively responsible; and, without prejudice to the foregoing provisions of this section, each of those Boards shall have power to provide such organisations with financial or other assistance.
(4) In discharging its functions under this section each Tourist Board shall have regard to the desirability of undertaking appropriate consultation with persons and organisations, including those mentioned in the last foregoing subsection, who have knowledge of, or are interested in, any matters affecting the discharge of those functions.—[Mr. William Rodgers.]
§ Sir K. JosephI beg to move Amendment No. 89, in page 3, line 16, at end insert:
(4) The British Travel Association shall, in consultation with the English Tourist Board, the Scottish Tourist Board and the Wales Tourist Board, establish machinery to co-ordinate the activities of all four Tourist Boards mentioned in this paragraph on matters affecting Great Britain as a whole.
§ Mr. SpeakerWith this Amendment I suggest that we take Amendment No. 90, in page 3, line 16, at end insert:
(4) The British Travel Association, the English Tourist Board, the Scottish Tourist Board and the Wales Tourist Board shall in the interests of economy and efficiency establish common services in appropriate cases and such common services shall be administered by the British Travel Association.
§ Sir K. JosephFirst, Mr. Speaker, I most warmly thank you for considering favourably our plea to consider these 1282 two Amendments. We are most grateful.
In Committee we took note of the creation of an extra tourist board, the English Tourist Board, but we did not draw—and this was a failure perhaps not only of the Government but of the Opposition and of all hon. Members in Committee—the managerial consequences of having four official bodies concerned with tourism.
Obviously, if the Government appoint, as we hope they will, people of the calibre and sense of the members of the B.T.A. to the new British Tourist Authority and the new or existing tourist boards, the four bodies will get on very well together and there will be no need for any reference in legislation to co-ordination between them. But there is always a chance that men and women of sense and goodwill will not be able to reconcile reasonable differences of opinion, and there is, alas, a chance that the Government will not always succeed in appointing sensible and experienced members to these boards.
We dread the use of these new boards, particularly the British Tourist Authority, for the superannuation of retired public figures. We hope that the Minister will be able to assure us that he recognises the importance of placing shrewd, vigorous men and women of enterprise on these bodies.
But, assuming that he does, there still remains the possibility that occasionally two, three, or even four of these bodies may have different opinions. At the moment the Bill is silent on this predicament. We are sure that the Government would not like to have different advice from two or even more of these bodies.
1283 There will be occasions when, with the best will in the world, an argument has been conducted and the differing viewpoints have not been reconciled. Inevitably, the government will then face differing opinions. We want to avoid differing opinions coming to the Government because, due to the presence of stupid people or the rousing of passions, the boards have not sought, and have not been under any statutory constraint to seek, to reconcile their differences. That is why we ask the Government either to accept Amendment No. 89 or to tell us that they will take it away and meet the substance of it by a suitable Amendment in another place.
I have put the view as broadly as I can on the possible emergence of differences of opinion, but co-ordination goes further. Inevitably, there are a number of activities which can only effectively be conducted in harmony by the British Tourist Authority and the three boards. The B.T.A. will normally be looked to for leadership in these common activities.
6.45 p.m.
I will give a few examples. There will be a common preoccupation with having some national system of information for the overseas or the domestic tourist. We have several hundred tourist information bureaux all over the country. It would make sense if at each bureau a common list of national facilities was available on request. There is scope here for co-ordination. Given good will, none of this presents any problem; but in case sometimes there is not good will we feel that there should be a fallback provision in the Bill.
Another example is the availability of foreign-speaking tourist guides for overseas visitors. Here again, there is scope for co-ordination of services by the B.T.A.
There is the whole jungle of potential inconvenience of different signposting arrangements, different grading arrangements, and different treatment for season tickets for tourists from overseas who want, for instance, a pass to all historic houses for a single payment. A mass of detail can be handled sensibly if there is leadership from the B.T.A. and co-operation from the tourist boards, but it can be wrecked by an unwillingness to co-operate.
1284 With this sort of approach in mind, we were comforted by the words of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in Committee on 25th March this year when he said that the B.T.A.—the British Tourist Authority
is not an overload; it is a co-ordinating body for development within Britain as a whole …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E., 25th March, 1969; c. 152.]That is fine, that is splendid. That is what we want to see embodied in the Bill. There is no provision for it at the moment, but we will gladly accept the Minister's assurance that he takes the point and will put in what the Government regard as a suitable version of our Amendment.I have not sought to mention the wide list of areas where co-ordination would make sense. I hope that I have said enough to indicate the scope and the need for co-ordination.
I now turn to Amendment No. 90, which deals with the same area of need, but in this case is addressed to the sense of common services.
I am sure the Government accept that the four tourist bodies will be sensible enough to pool some of their activities, but, again, there is no provision for this in the Bill. The best example is that of research. At the moment the British Travel Association has a staff of, I think, six working on research. I imagine no one contemplates that under the new manifestation the authority should have two people working on research and that each of the new tourist boards should also have two people engaged on this work. If that were to happen, they would each have less scope for intelligent, sustained, marketing and product research than there is at present.
What we have in mind is that men and women of good will will gladly agree to establish certain common services, but that if for any reason, either of personality or of disagreement, they are unwilling so to agree, there should be a statutory provision requiring them to consider having common services. That is the sense of Amendment No. 90.
I ought to give a few more examples of common services which might make sense. The tourist bodies will together be very large users of films, posters, booklets, and other public relations material. They are likely to get better staff for 1285 these services, just as they are likely to get better staff for research, if they can offer a single centre for these activities rather than having a number of dispersed centres.
Then there is the whole question of the Holidays in Britain campaign which the board has recently been encouraged by the Government to carry out. The effectiveness of this is likely to be the greater if it is at least initiated, and to some extent fertilised, by one directing set of minds.
Without going into a large number of examples, I hope that I have said enough to invite my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite to press the Minister, if he is at all unwilling, to meet the substance of these Amendments, even if the words themselves are not acceptable.
§ Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of Thanet)I intervene only to underline, to dot the i's and to cross the t's of one or two of the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph).
I start with Amendment No. 90, which refers to common services which are necessary in the interests of efficiency. I said that I wished to dot the i's and cross the t's because I wish to take the argument a little further down the path. The authority will be the controlling authority. It will feed information to the English, Scottish and Wales Tourist Boards, which may find that in the interests of efficiency it would be best if many of their activities were co-ordinated.
One of the major things which are necessary in the next year or two for the benefit of this country is the introduction of efficient tour operation for foreigners coming to this country. Very little has been done about this so far. We are peculiarly adept at sending British people overseas with a flood of extremely effective advertising and promotion. It is very difficult to counter this by bringing an equivalent number of overseas travellers to this country by equally efficient operation.
With the arrival of the jumbo jets it will be necessary for the new authority to co-ordinate effective tour operation within the four countries. Some form of co-ordination of air travel is necessary. 1286 Air fares are much too high. This means that we must take down the trousers of the I.A.T.A. for a start. We must ensure that there are cheaper tours for foreigners coming to this country.
Second, it will be the responsibility of the authority to co-ordinate rail travel throughout the United Kingdom. For this purpose it will no doubt have the closest possible relationship with British Railways. Third, it is necessary that all the printing should be done through one principal source. It is absurd to think of having different printers in different parts of the country, because the great majority of the publications will be of general national interest. It will be far better if the publications are dealt with at a central office, rather than country by country. Advertising has an extremely important part to play, and this, too, can be provided as a common service.
It is obvious that the authority will need the right kind of people for research. There are now several university chairs for tourist research. This should be further developed and encouraged, and the result will be far more effective if in this respect the four boards of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are under the umbrella of the British Tourist Authority.
As I see it, in the interests of efficiency the common services should be dealt with at the centre, but there should be consultation with each of the boards with regard to its own country.
That being established, what does the word "co-ordination" really mean? It is a polite way of asking who is to make the effective decision when there is a difference of opinion. It is important that the over-riding authority, the British Tourist Authority, should have the residual power by its vote to make that decision. By the structure we set up it may have that power, but that is not clear at the moment. It would be better to make it plain that specific duties are enjoined on the authority to take that decision in the final analysis, and further to enjoin on it the paramount duty, in the interests of economy and efficiency, to ensure that, wherever possible, there are common services.
Our most essential need to begin with will not be particularly attractive to the regions. It is of paramount importance to this country that at the earliest possible date we should have a major international 1287 conference centre in London. I understand that this will come about with the assistance of the G.L.C. when the Government can enter into suitable financial arrangements. With it will come the flow of big international conferences, and with them will come the opening up of a really new vista of tourism.
I hope that the Minister will be able to give the assurance for which my right hon. Friend has asked. I hope, too, that the matters to which I have referred will be taken careful heed of and brought into effect.
§ Mr. PardoeThese Amendments are made necessary by what I can only term the madness which took place in Committee. When I re-read that part of the Committee proceedings which added the English Tourist Board to this juggernaut, I could hardly believe my eyes. I was shocked to find the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) cheering loudly:
This is a great day. It is a terrific time for tourism in England …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E; 18th March, 1969; c. 52.]I almost expected the hon. Gentleman to table an Amendment saying that all the deliberations of the English Tourist Board should be conducted in Anglo-Saxon. My comments scribbled in the margin of the hon. Gentleman's speech were mostly in Anglo-Saxon.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member will not be out of order if he comes to the Amendment.
§ Mr. PardoeNo, Mr. Speaker, but the fact is that these Amendments are made necessary partly because of the creation of the English Tourist Board, which has complicated the whole problem of diversified functions within the industry. In Clause 2 we see:
It shall be the function of the British Travel Association …(b) to encourage the provision and improvement of tourist amenities and facilities in Great Britain; and the English Tourist Board, the Scottish Tourist Board and the Wales Tourist Board shall have the like functions.…It is true that that is qualified later on, but the whole problem which these Amendments try to remedy is that of ensuring that we do not have a massive wastage between the four separate organisations.1288 7.0 p.m.
I am only sorry, Mr. Speaker, that in your wisdom you did not see fit to call my own Amendment. As it appeared on the Notice Paper originally, I appreciate that it made nonsense. However, it was not my fault but that of the Table Office, as I think you are aware. My proposals were to divide this and go some of the way with the hon. and learned Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies), who spoke about the organisation of functions and services. I wanted to ensure that the B.T.A. was the overseas agency for selling Britain abroad and that it would act as an agency for the three boards. Unfortunately, that is not to be.
I want to make one point about the problem of research facilities. I do not think that I have to declare an interest here—
§ Mr. Rees-DaviesFor the record, the position is that there is no reason why the authority should not continue to be the overseas agency for all the boards. Yesterday, in reply in an intervention by another Liberal hon. Member, the Minister indicated that it was hoped to see it continue to do so.
§ Mr. PardoeI accept that, and the speech of the hon. Gentleman earlier let the cat out of the bag, because he is arguing for a more centralised structure than the wording of the Bill appears to indicate. His speech was largely one for a single central authority, and to a great extent I agree with him.
Turning to the problem of research, I have some experience in that I have myself conducted negotiations with the British Travel Association about research into wider holiday travel in this country. I have found a great deal of expertise in that body. It would be tragic to find oneself having to negotiate with four different bodies. It is important to have one research organisation carrying out the great bulk of research into the future of travel.
I must issue a word of warning. To my way of thinking, it is inevitable that empire building will occur in all four bodies. Whoever is in charge of each of them will want to create his own little research department, and each research manager will want to ensure that his department is large enough to make him 1289 feel important. I fear that this will happen, and that we shall end up with more people doing less good work.
To sum up, while the Bill would be better if it incorporated these Amendments, it is only making the best of a bad job.
§ Mr. Michael Jopling (Westmorland)I am glad to have an opportunity to support these two Amendments. A good case has been made by my right hon. and hon. Friends about the commonsense business advantages of co-ordinating the activities and establishing common services for these various bodies. We have heard about the advantages of co-ordinating and making common services in such matters as printing, publicity, advertising and research. However, there is another reason why it is important, and I hope that we shall hear later that the Government intend to accept these wto Amendments.
Many people are extremely suspicious about the setting up of what the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) has called "this great juggernaut". On Second Reading I used some rude words to describe the aims of the Bill in setting up yet another tier of bureaucracy, rather like a mazipan cake.
The Minister must accept that there is great disquiet, not only in this House but outside in areas where there is a large tourist industry, about the effects of this Bill—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. With respect, these four bodies are set up. We are discussing whether they co-ordinate their activities and whether they unify some of their services. It is about that that the hon. Gentleman must speak.
§ Mr. JoplingThat is exactly my point. If it is seen that Parliament has laid it down that these bodies should establish machinery to co-ordinate their activities and set up common services, there will be a better atmosphere for these organisations to work in for the future. At the moment, there is disquiet and mistrust of these organisations. If it can be seen that Parliament has said specifically what is contained in these two Amendments, it will do a good deal, though perhaps not as much as we would like, to improve the general public feeling about the creation of these four new organisations.
1290 I hope that the Government will accept the Amendments. Above all, I hope that the Minister will not say at the end of the debate that he feels sure that, in the natural course of events, these organisations will do as we have asked. We have heard Ministers say that before, and we have seen bureaucracy expanding in a way which would make Professor Parkinson proud. It is no good the Minister saying that. Parliament should tell these organisations that these economical methods ought to be employed. We feel sure that they will save money in the long run.
I would point out to the Minister that the words "in appropriate cases" are included in Amendment No. 90. We are not trying to tie down these organisations and oblige them to establish common services which may be against their interests. We do not want to tie their hands unduly. However, it will not be good enough for the Minister to say that he thinks that there will be co-ordination in the natural course of events. At this stage, Parliament should be saying what ought to happen. I hope that the Minister will not hesitate to accept the Amendments.
§ Mr. GowerAs you have pointed out, Mr. Speaker, we have these separate bodies, with the main authority and the respective boards. It should be our ambition to ensure that each of them performs the functions which were amply described during our debates in Committee. There was a good deal of agreement that the main business of the authority should be to promote overseas an increased number of foreign visitors to this country, and that the business of the separate boards for England, Scotland and Wales should be more detailed and much the same sort of task as has been performed in Scotland and Wales in recent years.
If the need for these Amendments has been emphasised, it is because of the wording of the Bill, which describes in Clause 2(1) the function of the main body and goes on to say that
… the English Tourist Board, the Scottish Tourist Board and the Wales Tourist Board shall have the like functions …".This seems to represent a duplication of functions. I agreed with the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) to that extent, although I did not agree with 1291 some of his other observations, since the provision of a body of this kind for England must be beneficial.I do not want the authority to diminish the responsibilities of the separate boards. Consider, for example publicity. The Welsh and Scottish boards have been doing magnificent publicity work, and I hope that this will continue. Their incentive to do this work will, I hope, be greater than that of the authority, since it is their function to put over the attractions of their areas. I hope that the authority will not be diverted into this function but will deal with the larger issues, such as increasing the volume of tourist traffic to the British Isles and, of course, persuading more British people to remain in this country for their holidays. Along with that goes the need to improve facilities here.
The Amendment would clear up much of the uncertainty that exists. It would make for better liaison and co-ordination. Despite the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies), we know what we mean by "co-ordination", and I hope that the Government will accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. William RodgersI was particularly interested to hear the remarks of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) in view of the comments of his right hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) on Second Reading. On that occasion, when stressing the fact that Scottish and Welsh boards were provided for in the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman said that for the same reason an English board should have the same facilities. It has long been known that Devon and Cornwall look on tourism in different ways. It is now clear that the two hon. Members who represent that area and to whom I referred also look on the subject in different ways.
§ Mr. PardoeThe hon. Gentleman will have noted that my right hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) had reservations about the extension of bureaucracy under the Bill. Although he accepted that there should be an English Board—in logic, there must be—he was clear in expressing opposition to any extension of bureaucracy in this sphere. I reiterated that opposition.
§ Mr. RodgersI assume that the hon. Member for Cornwall, North has read the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 18 sittings we had in Committee. He will know the views which were expressed on both sides and the statement by the Government that we did not want to see a proliferation of bureaucracy. That remains our view.
Despite the intervention of the hon. Gentleman, it is clear that he and his right hon. Friend are out of step. This out-of-stepness does not exceed that of their right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), who spoke against omitting subsection (3) of Clause 2 yesterday and voted for omitting it today.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We are not co-ordinating the opinions of hon. Members.
§ Mr. RodgersThat would be a difficult task in this case, Mr. Speaker.
Having decided to set up an English board, I considered in Committee what I should say about how the board might work in conjunction with the authority. At that stage I had it in mind to suggest that there should be a co-ordination of services. I admit that it was even in my mind to suggest that the English board should be housed in the same building as the B.T.A. I decided, however, that it would be a brave man who would suggest that in a Committee which was so militant in favour of the independence of the three boards. I thought that I should be swimming against the tide of views in Committee if I made that suggestion. I therefore did not suggest it.
I am therefore surprised to note today that the pendulum has swung back and that now anxiety is that England, Scotland and Wales should not be too independent with the result that there might be a lack of co-ordination and a lack of sharing of common services.
§ 7.15 p.m.
§ Mr. William Edwards (Merioneth)I urge my hon. Friend not to take seriously the views of the Liberal Party on this matter because no one in Wales or Scotland does.
§ Mr. RodgersI had finished dealing with the Liberal Party some minutes ago. However, I thank my hon. Friend for emphasising a point which is no doubt apparent to the House.
1293 I hope that I shall not disappoint the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Jopling), who thought that I would reply by saying that everything would turn out nicely in the end. However, there is some merit in approaching this matter in a flexible way and relying on good sense to prevail. If we are to act in the spirit of the comments of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North and not create more bureaucracy, we must be cautious about creating unnecessary statutory duties, which is precisely what the Amendment would achieve.
We should also be cautious in laying down rules for management covering the organisations which we set up. We have our rôle here. We decide the strategy and make the policy which is embodied in legislation. Do not let us then try to wear a different hat and run, in a day-to-day sense, the organisations which we set up. If we try to do this we shall have the worst of all worlds and not obtain the people with the ability we need.
Like the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), I pay tribute not only to Lord Geddes and the board of the B.T.A. but to all those who work for it. They have been professionals in the best sense and have done a first-rate job. I do not want to bind those who may find themselves working in future for the boards or the authority in the way that some hon. Members have suggested. We should not make statutory provision for the establishment of machinery for the co-ordination or sharing of common services.
This discussion has served a useful purpose. I agree that we must make sure that each board and the authority does not go off on its own tack and fail to share services which are in common. I would not exclude the possibility of the boards doing some research, but I see the authority as the essential body where research will be done. This will be essential, particularly in promotion matters.
I urge hon. Members to bear in mind Part II of the Bill and its important provisions for hotel development. I agree with the views expressed in Committee on this issue; that there will be need for the boards to talk together and to make sure that they approach their 1294 several but common statutory responsibilities in the same sort of way. If this is not done, anomalies will arise.
I have shown that we want close co-ordination between the boards. The authority can, perhaps, play some part in this. We want to see a sharing of some services, and I am glad that the view that this might be done has emanated from hon. Gentlemen opposite because there is now unanimity on this issue, and I therefore feel free to admit what I did not feel free to admit in Committee.
I was glad to hear the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East say that he wanted to see co-ordination and that he did not want the B.T.A. to be an overlord. That, too, is a sentiment which I endorse. I hope that the new authority will, when established, co-operate closely at all levels with the boards, that the boards will work together and that there will be no useless duplication of activity and, as a result, no wasteful duplication of personnel.
§ Amendment negatived.