§ 1. Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Minister for the Civil Service what study he has made of the changes in law affecting the provision of retirement benefits in public and private occupational pension schemes which will be needed to remove obstacles to free movement into and out of the Civil Service.
§ The Paymaster-General (Mrs. Judith Hart)The Government's intention to legislate to preserve occupational pension rights generally was stated in Chapter 6 of the White Paper on National Superannuation and Social Insurance (Cmnd. 3883), and the consequential changes needed in the Civil Service scheme will be considered during the current review of it. This should go far to removing obstacles to movement into and out of the Civil Service.
§ Sir B. Rhys WilliamsDo the Government accept that there is no way of making public sector schemes compatible with private sector schemes unless all private sector schemes are allowed to give lump sum options on retirement?
§ Mrs. HartI could not wholly accept this. Indeed, our proposals for preservation should make a great deal of difference to the freedom of people to move in and out. However, I think that the Government would be ill-advised to move in an ad hoc way on this point in advance of the review.
§ 7. Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a further statement as to the review of Civil Service pension arrangements which he is undertaking in the context of the Government's proposals for national superannuation.
§ Mrs. HartI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me an opportunity to clarify a reply I gave to a supplementary question he asked on 28th April. There is no intention of altering benefits earned by service in the existing Civil Service scheme up to the date on which any revised scheme is introduced. But changes in the present terms for service thereafter may well be necessary in order to take account of the greatly increased benefits that will be payable under our new earnings-related scheme. This matter will be fully considered during the review to which the right hon. Gentleman refers.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI thank the right hon. Lady for clearing up what was a wholly inadvertent slip in reply to a supplementary question. Is she aware, in respect of the Civil Service itself, that the possession of a non-contributory pension earned throughout life is a matter of very great importance, and will she defend the rights of the Service against having to sacrifice that in return for an expensive contributory scheme?
§ Mrs. HartI thank the right hon. Gentleman for his remarks. I think that two points should be made clear. First, the White Paper itself makes very clear the context of the review that is taking place. Second, there is a difference between reserved rights and accrued rights. The staff side has been given a complete assurance that the Government do not intend to alter the benefits afforded by service in the past, but when we come to consider the new scheme there are a number of things which must be looked at together, and it is this review which is of the greatest importance to all those members of the Civil Service.
§ Mr. Patrick JenkinBroadening the Question a little, does the right hon. Lady not recognise that this would be a good opportunity to re-examine the question of the notional funding of Civil Service pensions so that the true cost of the pensions can fall in the year in which the service is actually incurred?
§ Mrs. HartThe whole question of the eventual arrangements for pensions for the Civil Service looked at in the light of the new superannuation proposals of the Government must be seen in the context of the whole of the White Paper and its attitude to funding. I cannot think that it would be sensible to regard it separately.