§ Q2. Mr. Molloyasked the Prime Minister if he will arrange a meeting with the President of France to discuss the subject of arms supply to Nigeria.
§ Q11. Mr. James Johnsonasked the Prime Minister whether he will seek a meeting with the President of France to discuss the supply of munitions of war to Nigeria.
§ The Prime MinisterIt is not possible at this stage to forecast the policy of the next President of France in respect of arms supply to the insurgents in Nigeria. With regard to the feasibility of arms control generally, I would refer my hon. Friends to my supplementary answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on 2nd April.—[Vol. 781, c. 497.]
§ Mr. MolloyWhen the President of France is elected, will my right hon. Friend see him and use all his endeavours to reverse the policy of President de Gaulle, and stop arms going to Biafra? Will he also contact other Governments, like the Swedish Government, some of whose people are having fun dropping their bombs, and call a conference once again between the two sides to try to end this dreadful situation?
§ The Prime MinisterOn the first part, we should have to consider what would be the proper means of representing to the French Government our very strong feeling that these arms shipments should stop, even if they go through other countries and are officially denied in France. As to the question of a meeting between both sides, I have expressed the view a number of times that this is primarily a matter for the African countries concerned. It is a tragedy that this was not settled at Monrovia, and we must go on doing all we can to get both sides together to get a cease-fire.
§ Mr. James JohnsonIs my right hon. Friend aware that this matter was discussed at the last meeting of the Council of Europe, where it was felt unanimously that one of the main factors in prolonging this sad and massive conflict was the supply of illicit arms to Colonel Ojukwu's forces? Would he bear in mind the example of the Governments of Sweden and Switzerland in stopping supplies in 1664 their own territories by their nationals, and would he convey to the next leader of the French State the feelings of Her Majesty's Government and this House in this matter?
§ The Prime MinisterI am grateful. I will certainly look up what was said in that discussion in the Council of Europe, which, from my hon. Friend's account, seems to have been extremely helpful. The problem about the French Government is that they have denied that they were shipping arms, but that, in fact, the arms have been shipped from two Francophone countries in Africa which have been able to maintain their arms stocks by an almost constant infiltration of arms wherever they come from. It is a difficult matter to ask people to stop doing something which they deny doing.
§ Mr. HeathThere have been strong reports recently that the actual supply of arms alleged to come from French sources has been drying up. Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that or not? What information have the Government about it?
Also, have the Government any information, in relation to Nigeria, about the missing British nurse, Miss Goatcher? What action do they propose in her case?
§ The Prime MinisterThe answer to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that there were reports of it drying up. I think that there were signs of that for a short time, but my information—I believe that this is alleged—is that supplies have been resumed again; that is, from the Francophone countries concerned. One hopes that the original sources of supply will dry up quickly.
The question of Miss Goatcher, raised in the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, is a problem with which we are all very much concerned. She is a Save The Children Fund nurse who inadvertently drove into secessionist territory on 29th May. She is at present held at Owerri, and we are, through the I.C.R.C., making representations for her release. Her getting there was entirely innocent, and it would be a most serious matter if she were to be put on any charge; if, for example, she were held up to trial because she went there. As she is working under I.C.R.C. 1665 auspices, I suggest that the best solution is for us to let the I.C.R.C. do what it can to secure her release.
§ Mr. Hugh FraserIs it not clear that the Prime Minister has not changed his attitude one whit from the policy of the quick kill, a policy which has failed for two years? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he should reconsider this whole matter, remembering that there can be only a political solution and not a military one? Is he aware that what is urgently needed is a general arms embargo from all sides?
§ The Prime MinisterI have never given any credence to support of the policy of the quick kill. I have explained the reason why we have maintained supplies. The difference between our attitude is that what we have done has all been done above board. We have said what we have done publicly, and we have defended it in the House, sometimes in the face of deep though sincere, criticism.
The problem of the maintenance of this war long beyond the period when one might have expected it to have led to negotiations and an end is the fact that arms are coming in—with or without the right hon. Gentleman's support; he did not say—but that fact is not being admitted publicly, so that they are not subject to the gauntlet of public opinion.
§ Mr. BarnesWould not the Prime Minister agree that for two years the policy of Her Majesty's Government has always been based on the hope that this was the war that would be over the week after next? Is it not abundantly clear that this war will not be over in the near future? Is it not time for there to be a reappraisal of British policy in this matter?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. That has not been the basis of our policy. My right hon. Friends have explained in all the very serious debates that we have had the reason why we believe it is necessary for us to maintain our position as one of the arms suppliers. That has been fully explained. It has not been based on any forecast of the ending of the war.
We have taken a number of initiatives, and we have been working closely with others—for example, with the O.A.U. and the Emperor of Ethiopia—to try to get the parties together in order that the 1666 fighting can come to an end and real arms control can become effective. This was the aim of practically every member of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference this year and I hope that all hon. Members will use any influence which they may have to get the two sides round the conference table.
§ Mr. GrimondIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the important point is not whether arms are coming in secretly or openly but, as has already been pointed out, the fact that it is now apparent that, so long as arms do go on reaching both sides, this war will not finish? Is the Prime Minister aware that an entirely new situation prevails and that, whatever our obligations may have been, Her Majesty's Government should now say that they are in favour of a general embargo on all those who are now supplying arms to both sides?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman knows very well—I have answered Questions before about this—that I have made it clear that one will not get an agreement by the suppliers when, for example, one of the main suppliers says that he is not supplying. The only way to stop this—I assure the House that there is no one more anxious than I to stop these arms supplies—would be by policing the receipts of arms on the ground. However, that cannot be done while fighting is going on. This means that one cannot have a cease-fire without arms control and that one cannot have arms control without a cease-fire.
§ Mr. TilneySince one night 10 days or so ago I was at Warri, where I heard overhead a constant stream of arms-supplying aircraft presumably mixed up with some Red Cross aircraft going to Uli airstrip, cannot the European nations which are now supplying arms be made to realise the vast number of deaths that they are causing in Nigeria? Cannot Her Majesty's Government give some support by supplying, for example, advance dressing stations or field hospitals manned by the R.A.M.C. or other Services so that anybody who is wounded above the thighs may have a hope of survival?
§ The Prime MinisterWe are doing a great deal by way of medical supplies and other aid. I saw some of it myself, and I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman 1667 saw it when he was in Nigeria. I wish that there were more general acceptance and recognition of what he said in the early part of his supplementary question. Indeed, the fact that arms supply planes and relief planes go in willy-nilly, one with another, is the reason for the tragedy of the shooting down of a Red Cross relief plane. Perhaps the best answer is that relief supplies should be allowed in by day; and then the arms supplies could take their own risk.
§ Mr. HeathReverting to the question of Miss Goatcher, of course the House will back the Government in taking the action they deem appropriate, through either the Save The Children Fund or the International Red Cross. However, as in the case of the oil men, when a strong protest was made by the Italian and other Governments, in part through Portugal, it secured their release, will the right hon. Gentleman make it absolutely clear that Her Majesty's Government would wholeheartedly back any action which these associations may take; and I assure the Prime Minister that we would back up the Government in this?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman not only for what he said but for raising this matter this afternoon. Certainly we are wholeheartedly behind these efforts, and, without going into too much detail, I might add that two other Governments—it is a question of what Governments are the appropriate ones in this connection—who might be regarded as having influence in this area are reported to be making a protest to secure Miss Goatcher's release. I think it is probably better if we leave the matter where it is for now. We are being as energetic as possible in the circumstances, through the I.C.R.C. and in other ways. If the problem is not solved immediately, the right hon. Gentleman may care to raise the matter again, when I will give him the most up-to-date information.