HC Deb 11 June 1969 vol 784 cc1475-8
Mr. Paget

On a point of order. I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, Her Majesty's Government's proposal to sell to Libya Chieftain tanks which they have refused to sell to Israel. This story was broken today by Mr. Chapman Pincher in the Daily Express. While the publicity it has received may be relevant to the question of urgency, I, of course, take personal responsibility for the facts which I shall state in support of my application.

These facts are, first, that a deal is about to be finalised with Libya for the sale of about £40 million of arms, including a high proportion of Chieftain tanks which are our latest and most powerful tanks and Abbot mobile guns. Secondly, that we supplied about two and a half years ago two Chieftain tanks to Israel for evaluation, but there was some trouble with the builders, but those tanks have been found satisfactory and a year ago Israel put through an order for £60 million. That order, which the Ministry of Defence was anxious to accept, has been held up by the Foreign Office under present circumstances.

Those circumstances were understood to be the four-Power talks. If those four-Power talks have any chance of success we must not take any partisan position in advance. The sale to an Arab Power, at present at war with Israel, of the very tanks which we have refused to Israel would put us in that partisan position. We have also to remember that at this very moment we are receiving a visit from Mrs. Golda Meir, the Prime Minister of Israel.

This story having broken, and these facts being as they are, if this situation in the Middle East is not to be finally prejudiced it is necessary that either the Foreign Secretary or the Secretary of State for Defence should be in a position to come to the House to explain the situation and it is the duty of this House to give him that opportunity.

Standing Order No. 9 provides an opportunity and I believe that we should be falling short of our duty if we did not take it.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) was courteous enough to inform me this morning that he would seek an application under Standing Order No. 9.

The hon. and learned Member has asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely, Her Majesty's Government's proposal to sell to Libya Chieftain tanks which they have refused to sell to Israel. As the House knows, under the revised Standing Order No. 9 I am directed to take into account the several factors set out in the Order, but to give no reason for my decision. I have given careful consideration to the representations the hon. and learned Member has made, but I have to rule that the hon. and learned Member's submission does not fall within the provisions of the revised Standing Order and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

Mr. John Mendelson

On a point of order. On a previous occasion, before the Standing Order was changed, I asked for leave to move the Adjournment of the House under the then Standing Order concerning a report about the proposed supply of arms to Vietnam. You then said to the House, Sir, that you had every sympathy with my arguments in so seeking leave at that time, but that before there was a change in the Standing Order you could not accede to my request. Since then the Standing Order has been amended.

Although I cannot ask you to tell us the reasons why you now adhere to the same attitude as that which you adopted on that occasion before the change was made in the Standing Order, I submit that hon. Members must have an opportunity at least to express their disappointment that, even after the change in the Standing Order, we cannot now, before the effective decision to export these arms has been taken, discuss the matter in the House.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman is doing exactly what the Standing Order does not permit him to do. In my evidence to the Committee of Procedure on Standing Order No. 9 I set out all the problems I am instructed by the House to give no reasons.

This is a difficult decision that Mr. Speaker has to make from time to time. It is bound to disappoint the hon. Gentleman who asks for an emergency debate under Standing Order No. 9. It is bound to disappoint other hon. Gentlemen who are keenly interested in the subject which is raised. The subject would not be raised if it was not a matter of keen interest to somebody. Mr. Speaker can only decide what he has decided, and there we must leave it.

Mr. Heffer

Further to that point of order.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I hope that we shall not drift into the old habit which has gone for a long time of questioning the Ruling on an application for an emergency debate under Standing Order No. 9.

Mr. Heffer

Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order and I have no intention of in any way questioning your Ruling. May I make a request on behalf of myself and many other hon. Members to the Leader of the House that the Minister concerned should give the House a full statement on the position?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is a point that I think the Leader of the House will take note of.