HC Deb 10 June 1969 vol 784 cc1350-8

Amendment made: No. 27, in page 26, line 9, leave out 'subject to subsection (6) below'.—[Mr. Millan.]

Mr. Millan

I beg to move Amendment No. 28, in page 27, line 23, at end insert: (9) Where the Secretary of State causes a draft scheme or a scheme to be published under this section, he shall cause to be prefixed to that draft scheme or scheme a memorandum setting out—

  1. (a) the reasons why, in his view, the reorganisation of the endowment to which the draft scheme or scheme relates is necessary;
  2. (b) the respects in which the draft scheme or scheme involves any substantial alteration of the purposes to which the said endowment is applied or applicable; and
  3. (c) the reasons for any such alteration;
and for the purposes of the provisions of this section relating to publication, that memorandum shall be deemed to be part of the draft scheme or scheme, as the case may be.
Procedure in preparation of reorganisation schemes by Scottish Universities Committee of Privy Council by virtue of s. 118(5). 125A.—(1) Before making, by virtue of section 118(5)of this Act, a scheme for the reorganisation of any endowment the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council (hereafter in this section called 'the Committee') shall prepare a draft scheme and shall—
(a) send copies of the draft scheme to the governing body of the endowment to which the draft scheme relates; and
(b) cause the draft scheme to be published in such manner as it thinks sufficient for giving information to all persons interested in the scheme; and the governing body of that endowment or any other person interested in the scheme may, not later than the expiry of the period of one month from the first publication of the draft scheme, send in writing to the Committee objections to the draft scheme, or proposed amendments thereto, or both. (2) If within the period referred to in subsection (1) above no objection and no proposed amendment to the draft scheme is received by it, the Committee may make the scheme in the terms of the draft scheme published under that subsection, and it shall be lawful for Her Majesty by Order in Council to approve the scheme so made. (3) If within the said period objections or proposed amendments to the draft scheme are received by it, the Committee shall consider those objections and proposed amendments and may thereafter, if it thinks fit, frame a scheme in such form as it thinks expedient. (4) If the Committee frames a scheme under subsection (3) above, it shall as soon as practicable thereafter—
  1. (a) give to the persons who made the objections or, as the case may be, proposed the amendments to the draft scheme notice in writing of its decision with respect to those objections or amendments;
  2. (b) send copies of the scheme to the governing body of the endowment to which the scheme relates;
  3. (c) cause the scheme to be published in such manner as it thinks sufficient for giving information to all persons interested in the scheme;
  4. (d) cause to be published, along with the scheme, a notice—
    1. (i) stating that, unless not later than the expiry of the period of one month from the first publication of the scheme an appeal is presented to the Court of Session in accordance with the following provisions of this section, the Committee proposes to make the scheme in the terms in which it has been published, and that the scheme when so made may be approved by Her Majesty by Order in Council; and
    2. (ii) drawing attention to the provisions of subsection (6) below in such a way as to inform all persons concerned of their right under that subsection to present a petition to the Committee and of the effect of their so doing.
 (5) If within the period referred to in paragraph (d)(i) of subsection (4) above no appeal is presented as aforesaid to the Court of Session, or if any appeal so presented is refused by the Court, the Committee may make the scheme in the terms in which it was published under that subsection, and, subject to subsection (6) below, it shall be lawful for Her Majesty by Order in Council to approve the scheme so made. (6) If within the said period a petition praying that the scheme be laid before Parliament is presented to the Committee by any of the persons mentioned below, the Committee shall cause the scheme to be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and it shall be lawful for Her Majesty, after the scheme has so lain for forty days (in reckoning which period no account is to be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days), by Order in Council to approve the scheme unless within that period either House has resolved that the scheme shall not be proceeded with, in which case no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice, however, to the making of a new scheme. The persons referred to above in relation to a scheme under this section are those mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (e) of section 125(6) of this Act in relation to a scheme under that section. (7) Subsection (8) of section 125 of this Act shall apply for the purposes of this section as it applies for the purposes of that section, with the substitution, for the references to the Secretary of State and to subsections (4) to (7) and (3) of that section, of references to the Committee and to subsections (4) to (6) and (3) of this section respectively. (8) Subsection (9) of section 125 of this Act shall apply for the purposes of this section as it applies for the purposes of that section, with the substitution, for the references to the Secretary of State and to that section, of references to the Committee and to this section respectively. (9) For the purposes of this section, references to an endowment shall be construed as references to a university endowment or the Carnegie Trust and references to the governing body of an endowment shall be construed as references to the founder or the governing body or the university court of any university, with respect to a university endowment, and to the Carnegie Trustees, with respect to the Carnegie Trust. Perhaps it be for the convenience of the House if we also discuss Amendments 29 to 31, 47, 55 and 56.

Mr. Speaker

I have no objection if the Opposition have none. I am guided by the Opposition—unanimity.

Mr. Millan

Rather unexpected, but we have it for once.

These Amendments are necessarily lengthy and set out the procedure for the making of schemes or the reorganisation of endowments by the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council. When we were dealing with other Amendments in Committee to do with the reorganisation of endowment schemes I said that I did not think that we had got the provisions right for the application of the procedure for the reorganisation of the endowment schemes of the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Coucil and, therefore, we might have to put down Amendments on Report.

These Amendments are necessary to get the procedure right. The background to this is that under Section 118 of the 1962 Act and the Bill as it stands, the Scottish Universities Committee has like powers in relation to the university endowment schemes and the Carnegie Trust as the Secretary of State has in relation to educational endowments. I thought it necessary to set out in detail what the powers of the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council were. The new Section included in the first Amendment does that. The procedure is quite similar, though not identical, to that in the new Section. The main difference is that university endowment schemes will continue to be made by the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council and approved by Her Majesty by Order in Council, and educational endowment schemes will now be made by Statutory Instrument and such approval will be unnecessary.

It would be simplest if I were to say a word about each Amendment so as to get it on the record for those hon. Gentlemen who are interested. I deal first with Amendment 28. The new subsection (9) of the Section 125, which is the first part of this Amendment, reproduces the provisions of subsection (1) of Section 127 as set out in Clause 19. The previous reference is taken out by a subsequent Amendment. The new Section 125A is rather lengthy. Subsection (1) sets out the procedure to be followed by the Scottish Universities Committee in preparing a draft scheme. Subsection (2) provides for the making and approving of a scheme when no objections are sent to the Committee. Subsection (3) deals with the procedure for framing a scheme when objections or proposed amendments are sent to the Committee. Subsection (4) deals with the procedure after a scheme has been framed. It provides for the publication and circulation of the scheme and for the giving of notice that, unless an appeal under subsection (2) is presented to the Court of Session or a petition is presented to the Committee within one month of publication, the scheme will be made and approved by Order in Council.

Subsection (5) provides that when no appeal is presented to the Court of Session, or if any appeal is refused by the Court, the scheme may be made and, if the scheme is not required to be laid before Parliament, approved. Subsection (6) provides for the laying of the scheme before both Houses of Parliament if a petition is presented to the Committee. Unless either House resolves, within 40 sitting days, that the scheme shall not be proceeded with, it may be approved by Order in Council. Subsection (7) deals with the position when the Court of Session decides, on appeal, that a scheme is contrary to law. Subsection (8) provides for the publication, with a draft scheme or scheme, of a memorandum explaining its purpose. Subsection (9) defines, for the purposes of the Clause, "endowment" and "governing body".

Amendment No. 29 is consequential on Amendment No. 28. Amendment No. 30 is also a consequential drafting Amendment. Amendment No. 31 has the effect of deleting the proposed Section 127. As I have said, subsection (1) of the proposed Section 127 is included in Amendment No. 28. Subsection (2) is omitted because, in our view, it is not necessary to provide specifically for endowment inquiries. There is already provision in education legislation.

Section 68 of the 1962 Act enables the Secretary of State to hold an inquiry for the purpose of the exercise of any of his functions under the Act, and in future any endowment inquiries will be held under Section 68. Therefore, no special provision is required. Amendments Nos. 47, 55 and 56 are drafting and consequential Amendments.

This is a rather elaborate matter, but it seemed better that we should lay out the procedure in full than try to deal with it by reference to the other procedure with perhaps a good deal of amendment which would make it unintelligible. The Amendments, and particularly Amendment No. 28, constitute a consecutive story of the means for reorganising the university endowments concerned, and I hope that the House will accept them.

9.30 p.m.

Mr. Wright

I should like the Under-Secretary of State to clarify one or two points. I accept that he warned us in Committee that he was not sure that we were right about the application of the new procedure to the powers of the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council. In the preceding paragraph he admitted that he did not expect members of the Standing Committee to follow with absolute understanding every word of what he said. I doubt whether tonight the House followed with absolute understanding every word of what he said. For this reason, I should like to ask three questions.

I accept that the new subsection (9) is the old Clause 127. However, the Minister will appreciate that by putting it in this form he is giving to the Secretary of State, as a preliminary rôle, a function which precedes the work of the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council. Are we to understand that all initiative must emanate from the Secretary of State or the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council? This is an important point to which I shall return later.

I should like to get clear that this is the sequence in which action will be taken by the Minister, and not merely a descriptive piece on the processes of legislation.

Secondly, may I be absolutely clear that there is no threat to the whole question of university endowment? It is not proper for us to discuss that, but the House will understand that this is a subject in which universities are very much involved. They are all going through the process of rethinking their endowments. I imagine that one reason why the Carnegie Trust is mentioned is that this, too, is under discussion. I should like to be assured that the autonomy of universities still exists, and that this is not the thin end of the wedge of gradual erosion of university freedom.

May we be reminded about the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council? Does the Committee consist of university people or officials of the Department of the Secretary of State? I hope the Minister will not mind if I say that I would prefer it to be more strongly representative of university people than of officials of the Secretary of State.

These are basic changes. The Under-Secretary of State will accept that no mention was made of this except in the paragraph to which he referred. I doubt whether I fully understood, for instance, that the Carnegie Trust would be included in this broad remit. This matter affects not only the original universities under the Carnegie Trust but all the new universities, since this has been the subject of legislation and of discussion in the courts. I therefore press him on the point.

I am particularly worried by subsection (9): For the purposes of this section, references to an endowment shall be construed as references to a university endowment or the Carnegie Trust". This is tackling the whole character of private benefaction to the universities which has continued for more than 400 years, and I should not like this to be transferred to the Secretary of State.

Finally, will the Under-Secretary assure us that there was full consultation with the universities and with the Carnegie Trust before this new Clause was introduced?

Mr. Millan

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned subsection (9). I think he has misplaced that subsection, since if he looks again he will see that it comes at the end of new Clause 125 and does not come in as a preliminary to the provisions dealing with university endowments which are in Clause 125A. The Amendment consists of two pieces, but since it runs consecutively it is put down altogether. The two parts are separate, and the first part relates to the previous Clause. He can be reassured on that point.

The hon. Gentleman asked who takes the initiative. The initiative is taken not by the Secretary of State but by the universities and the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council. There is no change in the basic relationship, and there is, therefore, no question that these provisions will diminish university autonomy. We are simply revising the procedure for reorganisation and, I hope, making it basically simpler. I cannot off-hand explain all the points of simplification, but the hon. Gentleman will remember that we have cut down an elaborate procedure on educational endowments into a procedure which is still elaborate but not quite as bad as it was before. It is a similar kind of process with which we are dealing.

Similarly, the Carnegie Trust has already been subject to the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council. There is nothing here which introduces anything new in regard to that Trust.

Obviously, these matters are discussed with the bodies concerned. I am not aware of when the discussions took place or of how elaborate they were, but I have no reason to suppose that the universities are in any way unhappy about our proposals. The general balance of initiative remains as it is at present.

The hon. Member also asked me how Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council is made up. It is a slightly complicated matter, but basically the constitution of the Committee is covered by Section 9 of the Universities (Scotland) Act 1889.

The Committee is not composed in the way the hon. Gentleman feared or expected. It is composed of the Lord President; the Secretary of State; the Lord Justice General, if a member of the Privy Council; the Lord Advocate, if a member of the Privy Council; the Chancellor of each of the universities, if members of the Privy Council—in many instances they will not be—the Lord Rector of each of the universities, if a member of the Privy Council; one member at least of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and such other members as may be appointed by Her Majesty. The powers and duties may be exercised by any three members, one of whom should be a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, or one of Her Majesty's Senators of the College of Justice.

At present the three members for this purpose are the Secretary of State, the Lord Advocate and Lord Guest, who is

a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. They all seem eminently respectable people, and I am sure that they have very much at heart the interests of the universities.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: No. 29, in line 24, leave out from 'made' to 'in' in line 27 and insert: 'or approved under the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act shall come into operation—

  1. (a) except as provided in paragraph (b) below, on the date of the making of the statutory or other instrument containing, or (as the case may be) the Order in Council approving, the scheme;
  2. (b) in the case of a scheme contained in a statutory instrument laid before Parliament in pursuance of section 125(6) of this Act, on such date as may be specified in that statutory instrument;
and shall have effect'.

No. 30, in line 33, leave out from 'statutory' to end of line 36 and insert: 'or other instrument containing a scheme made (otherwise than by the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council), or an Order in Council or other instrument approving a scheme, under this Part of this Act'.

No. 31, in line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 21 on Page 28.—[Mr. Millan.]

Forward to