HC Deb 24 July 1969 vol 787 cc2215-9

Lords Amendment No. 28: In page 56, line 7, leave out from "of" to end of line 13, and insert "two years delay".

Mr. Speaker

There is a Motion to disagree with this Amendment and the next two, Nos. 29 and 30, so I think that we might debate them together.

Mr. MacColl

I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This, again, is a matter which has been discussed at all stages of the Bill. Unlike the previous case on which we invited the House to disagree with the other place, the Amendment deals, not with postponement, but with the phasing of rent increases which have been registered. The point is common in relation to council rents. Where there is a sudden sharp increase in rents, even if the original rent was not high, this could lead to the dislocation of the arrangements of the household, and it is desirable to phase the increase over a period so that people can get used to it and adjust to it.

That principle is not challenged in the Amendment, but what is proposed is that the period of the phasing should be reduced. This was debated in Committee and defeated on a Division. It was debated again in the House, and again defeated on a Division. I think that the House indicated that we had got the phasing right, and, therefore I invite the House to assert again that it wants to keep the original proposal.

Mr. Speaker

I remind the House that we are debating Lords Amendment No. 28, and discussing the next two Amendments with it.

Mr. Graham Page

It is true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that for the purpose of debating the Amendment we are accepting a phasing, but not a different phasing for different landlords. What we object to is the distinction between the landlord who has improved his property in the past, and the landlord who will improve his property in the future.

The landlord who has improved his property in the past will not get his full fair rent for five years. The landlord who improves his property in the future, on the basis of the increased grant, will get his fair rent phased over a period of only three years. Their Lordships endeavoured to bring some sense and justice into this by reducing the period from four years to two years, and to apply the same rule to both kinds of landlord. This surely is the sensible way to do it. There cannot be any logic or moral in making this distinction between two different kinds of landlord.

7.15 p.m.

The hon. Gentleman said that the increase would be too sharp on the tenants. Would it be too sharp if it was spread over two years? Why should the tenant of a landlord who improves his property in the future be less able to bear the increase than the tenant of a landlord who has improved his property in the past? This sharp phasing over two years will apply to tenants who have their property improved in the future. Why should the landlord who has improved his property in the past have to wait five years? What encouragement is there in this?

The Minister has said that it is impossible to maintain property on controlled rents, and yet he is arguing that landlords who have improved their property on controlled rents in the past should maintain them on controlled rents for a further period. This is illogical, unfair, and unjust.

Mr. MacColl


Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member must have the leave of the House to speak again.

Mr. MacColl

With the leave of the House, perhaps I might say that the hon. Gentleman has misinstructed himself. The distinction is not between controlled property brought into improvement, and controlled property already in improvement. This applies to registered regulated rents where the increases are less and they have been brought up before. It is not a distinction between two types of control.

Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 194, Noes 134.

Division No. 346.] AYES [7.18 p.m.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Fraser, John (Norwood) Marks, Kenneth
Archer, Peter Gardner, Tony Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Armstrong, Ernest Garrett, W. E. Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) Ginsburg, David Mayhew, Christopher
Barnes, Michael Gregory, Arnold Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Baxter, William Grey, Charles (Durham) Mendelson, John
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Millan, Bruce
Bessell, Peter Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Bidwell, Sydney Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Grimond, Rt, Hn. J. Molloy, William
Boston, Terence Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Boyden, James Hannan, William Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Bradley, Tom Harper, Joseph Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Morris, John (Aberavon)
Brooks, Edwin Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Moyle, Roland
Broughton, Sir Alfred Hazell, Bert Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.W.) Heffer, Eric S. Murray, Albert
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Henig, Stanley Neal, Harold
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Hooley, Frank Newens, Stan
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Norwood, Christopher
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) Oakes, Gordon
Cant, R. B. Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Ogden, Eric
Carmichael, Neil Hoy, Rt. Hn. James Oram, Albert E.
Coleman, Donald Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Orbach, Maurice
Concannon, J. D. Hunter, Adam Orme, Stanley
Conlan, Bernard Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Oswald, Thomas
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Janner, Sir Barnett Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jeger, George (Goole) Palmer, Arthur
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Johnson,Carol (Lewisham, S.) Park, Trevor
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Dell, Edmund Jones, Dan (Burnley) Pavitt, Laurence
Dewar, Donald Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Kenyon, Clifford Pentland, Norman
Dobson, Ray Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Doig, Peter Lawler, Wallace Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Lawson, George Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Price, William (Rugby)
Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)
Eadie, Alex Lee, John (Reading) Randall, Harry
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lestor, Miss Joan Rees, Merlyn
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Richard, Ivor
Ellis, John Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
English, Michael Lomas, Kenneth Robertson, John (Paisley)
Ensor, David Lubbock, Eric Robinson, Rt.Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as)
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) McBride, Neil Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Faulds, Andrew McCann, John Rose, Paul
Fernyhough, E. MacColl, James Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Macdonald, A. H. Ryan, John
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Maclennan, Robert Short, Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Foley, Maurice McNamara, J. Kevin Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Silverman, Julius
Forrester, John Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) Skeffington, Arthur
Fowler, Gerry Manuel, Archie Slater, Joseph
Spriggs, Leslie Walker, Harold (Doncaster) Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) Wallace, George Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John Watkins, David (Consett) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley Weitzman, David Winnick, David
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Georgo Wellbeloved, James Wyatt, Woodrow
Tinn, James Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Tomney, Frank White, Mrs. Eirene TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Tuck, Raphael Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick Mr. loan L Evans and
Varley, Eric G. Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) Dr. M.S. Miller.
Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Grieve, Percy Pink, R. Bonner
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Gurden, Harold Price, David (Eastleigh)
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Hall, John (Wycombe) Prior, J. M. L.
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Hall-Davis, A. C. F. Pym, Francis
Balniel, Lord Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Quennell, Miss J. M.
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Bell, Ronald Harvie Anderson, Miss Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Blaker, Peter Hawkins, Paul Ridsdale, Julian
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Hay, John Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Body, Richard Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Heseltine, Michael Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Higgins, Terence L. Royle, Anthony
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hill, J. E. B. Russell, Sir Ronald
Bullus, Sir Eric Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin Scott, Nicholas
Burden, F. A. Hunt, John Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Campbell, B, (Oldham, W.) Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Silvester, Frederick
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Chataway, Christopher Kaberry, Sir Donald Speed, Keith
Chichester-Clark, R. Kershaw, Anthony Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Clark, Henry King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Clegg, Walter Kirk, Peter Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Cooke, Robert Kitson, Timothy Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Cooper-Key, Sir Neill Knight, Mrs. Jill van Straubenzee, W. R.
Corfield, F. V. Lane, David Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Costain, A. P. Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Vickers, Dame Joan
Crouch, David Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Waddington, David
Dance, James Longden, Gilbert Walker,Peter (Worcester)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn, Sir Derek
Dodds-Parker, Douglas McMaster, Stanley Wall, Patrick
Drayson, G. B. Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Walters, Dennis
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward McNair-Wilson, Michael Wells, John (Maidstone)
Eden, Sir John Maginnis, John E. Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Wiggin, A. W.
Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.) Monro, Hector Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Farr, John More, Jasper Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Fisher, Nigel Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Fortescue, Tim Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Worsley, Marcus
Foster, Sir John Murton, Oscar Wright, Esmond
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Nabarro, Sir Gerald Wylie, N. R.
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Neave, Airey Younger, Hn. George
Glover, Sir, Douglas Onslow, Cranley
Goodhart, Philip Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gower, Raymond Page, Graham (Crosby) Mr. Bernard Weatherill and Mr. Reginald Eyre.
Grant, Anthony Peel, John
Gresham Cooke, R. Percival, Ian

Subsequent Lords Amendments disagreed to.

Subsequent Lords A mendments agreed to.

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