§ Lords Amendment No. 28: In page 56, line 7, leave out from "of" to end of line 13, and insert "two years delay".
§ Mr. SpeakerThere is a Motion to disagree with this Amendment and the next two, Nos. 29 and 30, so I think that we might debate them together.
§ Mr. MacCollI beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
This, again, is a matter which has been discussed at all stages of the Bill. Unlike the previous case on which we invited the House to disagree with the other place, the Amendment deals, not with postponement, but with the phasing of rent increases which have been registered. The point is common in relation to council rents. Where there is a sudden 2216 sharp increase in rents, even if the original rent was not high, this could lead to the dislocation of the arrangements of the household, and it is desirable to phase the increase over a period so that people can get used to it and adjust to it.
That principle is not challenged in the Amendment, but what is proposed is that the period of the phasing should be reduced. This was debated in Committee and defeated on a Division. It was debated again in the House, and again defeated on a Division. I think that the House indicated that we had got the phasing right, and, therefore I invite the House to assert again that it wants to keep the original proposal.
§ Mr. SpeakerI remind the House that we are debating Lords Amendment No. 28, and discussing the next two Amendments with it.
§ Mr. Graham PageIt is true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that for the purpose of debating the Amendment we are accepting a phasing, but not a different phasing for different landlords. What we object to is the distinction between the landlord who has improved his property in the past, and the landlord who will improve his property in the future.
The landlord who has improved his property in the past will not get his full fair rent for five years. The landlord who improves his property in the future, on the basis of the increased grant, will get his fair rent phased over a period of only three years. Their Lordships endeavoured to bring some sense and justice into this by reducing the period from four years to two years, and to apply the same rule to both kinds of landlord. This surely is the sensible way to do it. There cannot be any logic or moral in making this distinction between two different kinds of landlord.
7.15 p.m.
The hon. Gentleman said that the increase would be too sharp on the tenants. Would it be too sharp if it was spread over two years? Why should the tenant of a landlord who improves his property in the future be less able to bear the increase than the tenant of a landlord who has improved his property in the past? This sharp phasing over two years will apply to tenants who have their property 2217 improved in the future. Why should the landlord who has improved his property in the past have to wait five years? What encouragement is there in this?
The Minister has said that it is impossible to maintain property on controlled rents, and yet he is arguing that landlords who have improved their property on controlled rents in the past should maintain them on controlled rents for a further period. This is illogical, unfair, and unjust.
§ Mr. MacCollrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member must have the leave of the House to speak again.
§ Mr. MacCollWith the leave of the House, perhaps I might say that the hon. Gentleman has misinstructed himself. The distinction is not between controlled property brought into improvement, and controlled property already in improvement. This applies to registered regulated rents where the increases are less and they have been brought up before. It is not a distinction between two types of control.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 194, Noes 134.
2219| Division No. 346.] | AYES | [7.18 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Archer, Peter | Gardner, Tony | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Garrett, W. E. | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Ginsburg, David | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Barnes, Michael | Gregory, Arnold | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Baxter, William | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mendelson, John |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Millan, Bruce |
| Bessell, Peter | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Grimond, Rt, Hn. J. | Molloy, William |
| Boston, Terence | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Boyden, James | Hannan, William | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Bradley, Tom | Harper, Joseph | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Morris, John (Aberavon) |
| Brooks, Edwin | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Moyle, Roland |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Hazell, Bert | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.W.) | Heffer, Eric S. | Murray, Albert |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Henig, Stanley | Neal, Harold |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hooley, Frank | Newens, Stan |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Norwood, Christopher |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Cant, R. B. | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Ogden, Eric |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James | Oram, Albert E. |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hunter, Adam | Orme, Stanley |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Janner, Sir Barnett | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jeger, George (Goole) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Johnson,Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Park, Trevor |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Dell, Edmund | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Dewar, Donald | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Kenyon, Clifford | Pentland, Norman |
| Dobson, Ray | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Doig, Peter | Lawler, Wallace | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lawson, George | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) | ||
| Eadie, Alex | Lee, John (Reading) | Randall, Harry |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Rees, Merlyn |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Richard, Ivor |
| Ellis, John | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| English, Michael | Lomas, Kenneth | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Ensor, David | Lubbock, Eric | Robinson, Rt.Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as) |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | McBride, Neil | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Faulds, Andrew | McCann, John | Rose, Paul |
| Fernyhough, E. | MacColl, James | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Macdonald, A. H. | Ryan, John |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Maclennan, Robert | Short, Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Foley, Maurice | McNamara, J. Kevin | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Silverman, Julius |
| Forrester, John | Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Fowler, Gerry | Manuel, Archie | Slater, Joseph |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Wallace, George | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John | Watkins, David (Consett) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | Weitzman, David | Winnick, David |
| Thomas, Rt. Hn. Georgo | Wellbeloved, James | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Tinn, James | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) | |
| Tomney, Frank | White, Mrs. Eirene | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Tuck, Raphael | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Mr. loan L Evans and |
| Varley, Eric G. | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) | Dr. M.S. Miller. |
| Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) | |
| NOES | ||
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Grieve, Percy | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Gurden, Harold | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Hall-Davis, A. C. F. | Pym, Francis |
| Balniel, Lord | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Bell, Ronald | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Blaker, Peter | Hawkins, Paul | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Hay, John | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Body, Richard | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Heseltine, Michael | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Higgins, Terence L. | Royle, Anthony |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hill, J. E. B. | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Scott, Nicholas |
| Burden, F. A. | Hunt, John | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Campbell, B, (Oldham, W.) | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Silvester, Frederick |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Chataway, Christopher | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Speed, Keith |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Kershaw, Anthony | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Clark, Henry | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Clegg, Walter | Kirk, Peter | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Cooke, Robert | Kitson, Timothy | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Knight, Mrs. Jill | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Corfield, F. V. | Lane, David | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Costain, A. P. | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Crouch, David | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Waddington, David |
| Dance, James | Longden, Gilbert | Walker,Peter (Worcester) |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | ||
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn, Sir Derek |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | McMaster, Stanley | Wall, Patrick |
| Drayson, G. B. | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Walters, Dennis |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Eden, Sir John | Maginnis, John E. | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.) | Monro, Hector | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Farr, John | More, Jasper | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Fisher, Nigel | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Fortescue, Tim | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Foster, Sir John | Murton, Oscar | Wright, Esmond |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Wylie, N. R. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Neave, Airey | Younger, Hn. George |
| Glover, Sir, Douglas | Onslow, Cranley | |
| Goodhart, Philip | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Gower, Raymond | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. Bernard Weatherill and Mr. Reginald Eyre. |
| Grant, Anthony | Peel, John | |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Percival, Ian |
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments disagreed to.
§ Subsequent Lords A mendments agreed to.