HC Deb 22 July 1969 vol 787 cc1501-7

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

Q26. Mr. WHITAKER

To ask the Prime Minister what plans he now has for extending the field of the Parliamentary Commissioner.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)

With permission, I will now answer Question No. Q26.

At Question Time on 24th June I told the House that the Government were considering urgently whether there should be an ombudsman for local government and, also, what similar arrangement might be considered for the National Health Service, and that I hoped to be able to make a statement shortly.

I am now able to inform the House that the Government accept in principle that an ombudsman system should be by law established for investigating complaints of maladministration by local government. The activities of local authorities impinge upon the daily life of the citizens directly and over a wide range and the introduction of a system analogous to that of the Parliamentary Commissioner into the local government sphere would be a major extension of the citizen's right to seek redress.

We envisage that a local ombudsman system would be separate from the Parliamentary Commissioner system; that its scope in relation to local government affairs would be similar to the scope of the P.C.A. in central Government affairs; and that the independent reports would be considered by the appropriate local authority.

The Government will, therefore, enter into discussions with the local authority associations and other bodies concerned with a view to introducing the necessary legislation; and will then present detailed proposals in the context of local government reorganisation.

As to Health Service administration, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services informed the House on 19th May that he was convinced that there was a substantial case for a health commissioner, though such an office should not be confused in its functions with the new hospital advisory service that he is now in process of setting up.

It will be necessary to consider, in consultation with the professional and other interests, how far the new service, when it is established, meets one side of the problem; the relationship of any commissioner to the new service; and also other problems of definition, for example, where complaints may involve clinical matters. These are questions which the Health Ministers will be considering as part of the proposals now being worked out for the future administrative structure of the health service.

I think that the House will be glad to have this statement of the Government's intentions in this matter, which represent a further important step in the consistent line of policy which we began with the appointment of the Parliamentary Commissioner.

Mr. Whitaker

Are not these very welcome extensions of this institution for the democratic safeguard of individual rights, which was initiated by the Labour Government after the Tories had refused to do so? Will the present and future Labour Governments also consider the extension of the same principle of independent investigation for allegations against the police and the nationalised industries, and personal cases of members of the Armed Forces and Civil Service?

The Prime Minister

That is widening it very much further. I think that this is the right step to take at present. As I said, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services is considering the position in relation to the Health Service. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary answered a Question about the police on 19th June, when he said that he was keeping the matter of the existing procedures for complaints about the police under review.

Mr. Carlisle

Can the Prime Minister say how many people he envisages serving as ombudsmen in local government? It will be a very large number, will it not?

The Prime Minister

That is a matter that we must discuss in the first instance with the local authorities, and this we intend to do in the discussions we shall have with them later this year about the Redcliffe-Maud proposals.

Mr. C. Pannell

Will my right hon. Friend consider a suggestion, from one who supports him on the present boundaries agitation, that this matter might wait for Redcliffe-Maud?

The Prime Minister

I have said that it will be discussed with the local authorities in our discussions about the Redcliffe-Maud proposals. Clearly, it will be a great deal easier to make permanent arrangements for a local ombuds- man service when we have the precise boundaries following the Redcliffe-Maud Report, but I would have thought that it would be possible to make progress ahead of that. For example, there are London and certain other big cities, whose position will not be very much changed even under the Redcliffe-Maud proposals, where a start should be made.

Sir D. Renton

Will local councillors have the same opportunities and responsibilities with regard to the local government ombudsman as Members of Parliament have in relation to the Parliamentary Commissioner?

The Prime Minister

That is very much a question we shall want to discuss with the local authorities. We do not want to be too hard and fast on how the system should work in matters which will involve reports which will have to be considered by the local councils. One important problem arising out of that question is that in the House we have the advantage also of a Select Committee to guide the work of the Parliamentary Commissioner. We shall want to consider whether it would be possible to have anything similar to that in at any rate major local authorities.

Dr. John Dunwoody

I enthusiastically welcome my right hon. Friend's announcement that we are to have a Parliamentary Commissioner to deal with local authority affairs. Many of us would feel that the arrangements by which referrals to the Parliamentary Commissioner so far have been by Members of the House should be continued when we consider complaints about local authority matters.

The Prime Minister

This will also have to be considered.

Mr. Hooson

While I welcome both announcements, may I ask whether the Prime Minister will confirm that it is not in his mind that complaints against health authorities should come from Members of Parliament, and that the people should have direct recourse to the Commissioner? Has he any time scale in mind for the setting up of the ombudsman system in respect of, one, local government, and two, health authorities?

The Prime Minister

I have said that my right hon. Friend was considering the very special problems, which are different, in relation to the Health Service, and considering that as part of the future administrative structure of the Service.

With regard to the local government ombudsman, this is a matter we shall discuss later in the year with the local authority associations. I hope that we can make reasonably rapid progress thereafter.

Mr. Lawson

Can my right hon. Friend say whether, in the making of this decision, the opinion of the Select Committee was taken into account, and, if so, what that opinion was?

The Prime Minister

We did not ask it to report on the question of local government. It is an entirely separate question, outside the present Act, and legislation will be needed. What we took into account was what I think many hon. Members will feel to have been the successful working of the Parliamentary Commissioner within the statutory limitations, and the great help given by the Select Committee. That was why I said that I hoped it might be possible to follow the example of having a Select Committee when we do what should be done in local government.

Mr. Hogg

Obviously, it is rather difficult to comment on the proposals in their present nebulous form. Can the Prime Minister say what is in his mind as regards publishing to the House the results of his consultations with local authorities? When is that likely to be? Will he contemplate publishing the results in the form of a White Paper, so that we can discuss them?

The Prime Minister

I certainly hope that very full information will be given to the House after the consultations with the local authorities. I cannot forecast an exact time, but we shall start them at the same time as we start on the Redcliffe-Maud discussions with them. Whether that should then be done by a White Paper, or included in the White Paper we have already said will be published following the Redcliffe-Maud discussions, or by some other appropriate Parliamentary means, I would like to consider a little nearer the time.

If the proposals are understandably somewhat nelbuous at this stage, it is because I thought it right that we should have full consultation with the local authorities. I thought, equally, that the House should be told about them even before we started.

Mr. Alfred Morris

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will be received very warmly, especially by the citizens of large cities and towns? Does he agree that if there must be any delay in the application of the idea it would be helpful at least to make an early start with the larger cities and towns, and will he commend that to the local authorities?

The Prime Minister

That was one of the things I mentioned as a possibility in answer to an earlier supplementary Question, because I do not think that it is necessary to wait for the new post-Maud local authority boundaries to be established and the new authorities to be in existence. In some cases—perhaps in the Manchester area that my hon. Friend has in mind—it would perhaps be possible to start the idea earlier, even before the new Maud boundaries came into effect.

If the trend is to be to a smaller number of large local authorities, that means that there will be fewer local councillors with executive responsibility in the fields that most touch the citizen and general public, and that strengthens the case for getting on with the proposals.

Dr. Bennett

Can the Prime Minister explain why it is not practicable, apparently, for him to extend the functions of the present ombudsman to local government, from which he is excluded, instead of setting up a completely new authority, and are not police matters local government matters, in any case?

The Prime Minister

They are a very special form of local administration, and I have nothing to add at this stage to what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said.

We considered whether our purpose could be achieved by extending the powers of the Parliamentary Commissioner, but many of these questions require local investigations on the spot, and even if the Parliamentary Commissioner were put in charge of the whole machine he would have to have a considerable number of outposts, assistant commissioners who would have to have direct contact with the local authorities and make reports to be considered by the local authorities. On balance—more than on balance—the argument is against extending our own Parliamentary Commissioner's powers.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Mr. Crosland. Statement.