§
Lords Amendment No. 3: In page 9, line 30, leave out "provision thereof is, in its opinion," and insert:
Post Office, after consultation with the Minister, considers the provision thereof".
§ The Postmaster-General (Mr. John Stonehouse)I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
This part of the subsection imposes particular duties in respect of the Post Office's services. The Post Office is to have the duty, subject to the qualification in brackets, to provide throughout the British Isles such services as satisfy all reasonable demands for them. The words in brackets recognise the practical problems which the Post Office is bound to run into in carrying out this duty. The Bill should not oblige the Post Office to do what is impracticable or not reasonably practicable. The Amendment acknowledges this, but proposes that the practicability of providing a service should be judged not by the Post Office but by the Post Office in consultation with the Minister.
These words are concerned with the details of day to day management. The 1629 Post Office will have a job to do and certain resources with which to do it. Post Office plant and facilities are laid out in what it judges to be the best way to meet the prospective demand for them. But it is not superhuman, and conflicts of priority for the use of its resources are bound to arise in individual cases. If the Amendment stands, every single case of this kind will require the involvement of the Minister. Thus, the Amendment will have the effect of putting the Post Office's customer into a worse position than at present because two bodies—the Ministry and the Post Office—will be involved, rather than one as now. It is hard to believe that this could lead to improved service or less red tape. In my view, it would lead to much more red tape and bureaucracy.
This all comes back to the question of what protection for the Post Office's customers should be built into the Bill. If in order to protect the customers, Parliament really wants the Minister and through the Minister Parliament itself to have a say in the day-to-day questions of the Post Office, it would be better to let the Post Office remain a Department of State. But that is not what we want. Both sides have accepted that the Post Office should become a public corporation. We have to weigh the advantages of giving the Post Office freedom from controls against the need to protect the interests of the customers in the ways that have been suggested.
The Bill as drafted achieves a careful balance in this respect. It sets the new Post Office in an interlocking framework of checks and controls. There are the users' councils which will be quite independent of Post Office organisation and in particular provide a forum where regional views can be voiced. The National Users' Council will be able to consider any case brought to its notice where it may seem as if the Post Office is interpreting its duty unreasonably, and to bring such cases to the Minister's attention. It can also bring cases to the Minister's attention on its own initiative. It will therefore be possible in suitable cases for the Minister to be involved in the kind of way that the Amendment suggests. The Minister has certain powers of direction over the Post Office and he will of course be answerable to Parliament in the usual way in connection 1630 with his sponsorship function over the Post Office.
This framework, while not actually involving the Minister in the decision-making process on day-to-day matters, is sufficient to ensure that the Post Office will be sensitive to public opinion, especially in the kind of case that we are discussing here, where there is a reasonable demand for the services that it provides.
I have read with great interest the debate in another place. However, I regard the Amendment as unrealistic and inconsistent with the basic principles of the Bill, and I advise the House to disagree with it.
§ Mr. Stratton Mills (Belfast, North)The right hon. Gentleman has set out the background to the Clause as he sees it. I suggest that there is another way of looking at the reason for the Amendment and the whole background of Clause 9.
Clause 9 is headed,
General duty of the Post Office.It puts on the Post Office a dutyto meet the social, industrial and commercial needs of the British Islands ߪ and, in particular, to provide"—and I emphasise this—throughout those Islands … services for the conveyance of letters and such telephone services".The important part of the Clause isthe social, industrial and commercial needsand particularly the words "throughout those Islands". I am sure that it was the intention of the Committee to put considerable emphasis on the social obligations "throughout those Islands".In the original Bill, the Post Office could opt out of these arrangements if the Post Office alone considered them to be impracticable. The Lords' Amendment seeks to alter the Bill so that the Post Office will have to consult—no moreߞthe Minister on any such measures. The small addition to the Clause would put on the Post Office the duty of consultation.
The real problem to consider is the range of matters which would be covered. The noble Lord, Lord Erroll, in another place, set out certain examples of the kind of thing about which he was worried. I would add my own worries about the Clause. For example, if the 1631 Post Office thought it impracticable in its view only to deliver mail in remote country areas, or to continue sub-post offices again in remote country areas, or to provide telephone services in such areas. These are matters on which the Post Office may or may not be right, but these are really social and political decisions in which this House ought to have some say and be able to question the right hon. Gentleman about the result of consultations on which he has been engaged.
The Government have put forward arguments against accepting this compartively minor Amendment. There were really three objections. First, the right hon. Gentleman said that he would be getting involved in the day-to-day organisation of the Post Office and that there would be two authorities involved, himself and the Post Office, rather than the Post Office alone.
As I have said, I believe that the operative words "provide throughout those Islands" are extremely relevant. These are matters in which the Minister should be involved and should have an opportunity of expressing a view. I believe that it is wrong that a monopoly like the Post Office should alone make this decision.
The right hon. Gentleman's second argument is that the Post Office Users' Councils can, under Clause 14(8)(a),
§ bring the matters to the Minister for his consideration. This depends on the Post Office Users' Councils being adequate watchdogs. I am not convinced, from past experience, that users' councils as such are always adequate watchdogs, but we will depend entirely on the Post Office Users' Council bringing matters to the attention of the Minister. I believe that many hon. Members would wish an opportunity to bring certain matters before the Minister. This is a matter for which the House should have ultimate responsibility.
§
The right hon. Gentleman's third argument—and it was used with some force in the other place—was that he had general powers under Clause 11. Subsection (2) says that if there is
a defect in the general plans or arrangements of the Post Office for exercising any of its powers …
the Minister may give it directions. I am not certain that the word "defect" is adequate to cover the kind of social responsibility which I have outlined, and which Lord Erroll outlined in another place. Clause 11 is for other types of circumstances, and for those reasons I advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against the Government's proposals.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 185. Noes 123.
1633| Division No. 341.] | AYES | [10.15 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Grey, Charles (Durham) |
| Anderson, Donald | Dempsey, James | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) |
| Archer, Peter | Dewar, Donald | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Dobson, Ray | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Doig, Peter | Hannan, William |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Dunnett, Jack | Harper, Joseph |
| Beaney, Alan | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Bence, Cyril | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Eadie, Alex | Haseldine, Norman |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Edelman, Maurice | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Bishop, E. S. | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret |
| Blackburn, F. | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Hilton, W. S. |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Ellis, John | Hooley, Frank |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Ennals, David | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) |
| Booth, Albert | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) |
| Boyden, James | Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Howie, W. |
| Brooks, Edwin | Faulds, Andrew | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Fernyhough, E. | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Buchan, Norman | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Hunter, Adam |
| Cant, R. B. | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Hynd,John |
| Carmichael, Neil | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) |
| Coleman, Donald | Ford, Ben | Janner, Sir Barnett |
| Conlan, Bernard | Forrester, John | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Freeson, Reginald | Jeger, George (Goole) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Ginsburg, David | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Gregory, Arnold | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Silverman, Julius |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Mendelson, John | Slater, Joseph |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Mikardo, Ian | Small, William |
| Judd, Frank | Millan, Bruce | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Kelley, Richard | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Kenyon, Clifford | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Molloy, William | Taverne, Dick |
| Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Moonman, Eric | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Lawson, George | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Tinn, James |
| Lee, John (Reading) | Murray, Albert | Tomney, Frank |
| Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold (Cheetham) | Neal, Harold | Tuck, Raphael |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Newens, Stan | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip | Varley, Eric G. |
| Loughlin, Charles | Norwood, Christopher | Wallace, George |
| Luard, Evan | Ogden, Eric | watkins, David (Consett) |
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Oswald, Thomas | Wellbeloved, James |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Paget, R. T. | Whitaker, Ben |
| McBride, Neil | Palmer, Arthur | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| McCann, John | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| MacColl, James | Pavitt, Laurence | Williams, Alan Lee (Horncnurch) |
| MacDermot, Niall | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Macdonald, A, H. | Pentland, Norman | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| McGuire, Michael | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Mackie, John | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Maclennan, Robert | Price, William (Rugby) | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Probert, Arthur | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| McMamara, J. Kevin | Rankin, John | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Woof, Robert |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.) | Rose, Paul | Mr. J. D. Concannon and |
| Manuel, Archie | Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Mr. Ernest Armstrong. |
| Marks, Kenneth | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | |
| Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | ||
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Glover, Sir Douglas | Peel, John |
| Astor, John | Goodhew, Victor | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Gower, Raymond | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Gurden, Harold | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Pym, Francis |
| Balniel, Lord | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Hastings, Stephen | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Bell, Ronald | Hawkins, Paul | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Bessell, Peter | Hay, John | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Biffen, John | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Heseltine, Michael | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Holland, Philip | Royle, Anthony |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Hunt, John | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Board man, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Scott, Nicholas |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Kershaw, Anthony | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Braine, Bernard | Kimball, Marcus | Sharples, Richard |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Kirk, Peter | Silvester, Frederick |
| Bryan, Paul | Kitson, Timothy | Speed, Keith |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&M) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Stainton, Keith |
| Burden, F. A. | Lawler, Wallace | Stodart, Anthony |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Longden, Gilbert | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Lubbock, Eric | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | MacArthur, Ian | Temple, John M. |
| Clark, Henry | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Cooke, Robert | McMaster, Stanley | Waddington, David |
| Corfield, F. V. | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.) | Marten, Neil | Walters, Dennis |
| Dean, Paul | Maude, Angus | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Mawby, Ray | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Montgomery, Fergus | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | More, Jasper | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Eyre, Reginald | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Wright, Esmond |
| Farr, John | Murton, Oscar | Wylie, N. R. |
| Fisher, Nigel | Neave, Airey | Younger, Hn. George |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Nott, John | |
| Fortescue, Tim | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. C. | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Mr. Anthony Grant and |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, c.) | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. Hector Monro. |
| Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |