HC Deb 16 July 1969 vol 787 cc591-6
19. Mr. Rankin

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with organisations concerned with secondary school teaching reorganisation; and what plans are being proposed.

Mr. Millan

I have at present no plans to change the organisation of secondary school teaching.

Mr. Rankin

Is my hon. Friend aware that teachers associated with secondary education assure me that the staffing position is not a very happy one and that over any given period of, say, seven years one out of three teachers is now leaving, which in turn is placing a demand upon graduates engaged in the primary schools? Does my hon. Friend not regard that as a serious position, to which he should attend?

Mr. Millan

I know that there are shortages of teachers in secondary schools but recruitment is increasing at the same time. This is true not only of graduates but of honours graduates entering colleges of education.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Has the hon. Gentleman discussed with secondary teachers' organisations the question of the future of the selected schools in Glasgow once fees are abolished? Does he appreciate the very big problems which will arise then, and can he assure us that he will not try to create comprehensive territorial secondary schools in areas where hardly anyone lives?

Mr. Millan

That has nothing to do with the Question on the Order Paper.

24. Mr. Tom McMillan

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of the scheme for additional payments in areas of teacher shortage.

Mr. Millan

A total of 73 secondary and 80 primary schools, mainly in the west of Scotland, have been designated as schools of severe teacher shortage. Provisional figures for the secondary schools are encouraging. These show that between January, 1968, and January, 1969, the pupil/teacher ratio in the designated secondary schools improved from 22.7 to 21.8 despite a slight worsening of the ratio as a whole in Scotland. I do not as yet have figures for the designated primary schools.

Mr. McMillan

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to keep in mind that the scheme should be furthered and its great success in Glasgow borne in mind?

Mr. Millan

This will happen in any case when the present schemes comes to an end in 1971. So far, the results are very encouraging, and it is something of which we want to take account in our future planning for teacher supply.

Mr. MacArthur

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that, while these results are encouraging, any suggestion of direction of teachers would be totally unacceptable?

Mr. Millan

This is not a question of direction; it is a question of giving financial encouragement to teachers to go to the schools where the shortage is most acute. I should have thought that that would be acceptable to all sides of the House.

34. Mrs. Ewing

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many persons have now been turned down by reference panels for registration with the General Teaching Council in Scotland; and now many such persons are now in the employment of Scottish education authorities in schools, specifying the number in each authority and the jobs these persons are engaged to do.

Mr. Millan

The hon. Lady is confusing different things. Reference panels are concerned not with the registration of teachers, but only with temporary appointments of unregistered teachers.

Mrs. Ewing

Does the Minister think that that is a satisfactory reply? Is he aware of the concern of the Educational Institute of Scotland in the matter; and that the Lanarkshire section of the Educational Institute asked for the question to be raised in Parliament? Is he not aware that there is a belief that if that has happened, and we have not heard, it looks like the back-door entrance of unqualified staff?

Mr. Millan

Whatever the E.I.S. in Lanarkshire may have done, it has not asked for this Question to be put on the Order Paper because, obviously, the Question shows lack of understanding of the purpose of the reference panels. If the hon. Lady referred to the situation in Lanarkshire, where there is controversy about the continued employment of unregistered teachers who have been disqualified by the reference panels, I must say that I have already met the education authority and have obtained what I think are satisfactory assurances on these matters.

Mr. James Hamilton

Will my hon. Friend also tell the House that I wrote to him, and that I received a reply from him acceptable to Lanarkshire teachers, and particularly the Lanarkshire section of E.I.S.?

Mr. Millan

I am glad to hear that.

35. Mr. MacArthur

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many teachers in schools had not re-registered with the General Teaching Council at the latest convenient date; and if he will make a further statement.

73. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his latest estimate of the number of teachers currently employed in schools in Scotland, who have failed to register with the General Teaching Council since 1st April 1969; and if he will state the numbers in this category employed by each local authority in Scotland, respectively.

Mr. Millan

I have not asked education authorities for the information that would be needed to bring up to date the figure of 2,139 at 1st July that I announced during the Estimates debate in the Scottish Grand Committee on 3rd July. As regards the situation generally, I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member's Question of 25th june.—[Vol. 785, c. 277.]

Mr. MacArthur

Will the Minister agree that the constructive course for teachers to take is probably to re-register pending the outcome of the present review? Would he also agree that he cannot allow the present position to drag on, and that the final decision must be seen to be equitable and fair to those teachers who were dismissed earlier this year?

Mr. Millan

I certainly agree that those who are not registered or who have not re-registered should do so now. The figures of registrations have gone up by 673 in the last fortnight since I announced the previous figures. I agree that the matter of equity between teachers dismissed last year and those not registered this year has to be borne in mind. I also have no wish that this matter should drag on indefinitely.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Hannan.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have Question No. 73.

Mr. Speaker

A late question does not entitle the hon. Gentleman to be called. Mr. Hannan.

Mr. Hannan

Will my hon. Friend make it known that this is essentially a matter for the teachers themselves to resolve? Will he also try to make it clear that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State should not be seen to be carrying the responsibility for untoward things that happen as a consequence?

Mr. Millan

The responsibility for dealing with teachers who have not registered is certainly with the local education authorities. There is also now the question of general support for the General Teaching Council. The continuing responsibility is on the teachers individually and through their associations, and I certainly would not wish to derogate from that responsibility.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

The Minister has referred to the inequity as between those teachers sacked last year and those who have not been sacked this year although they committed precisely the same supposed technical offence, but does he intend to do something about equity? Does he also intend to do something about the situation in which every local authority is in breach of the law, and has been in breach of the law since the beginning of May?

Mr. Millan

I did not mention any inequity at all. What I said was necessary was the maintenance of equity between the two years.

45. Mr. Dewar

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made with the discussions with local education authorities following the publication of the recent report on secondary school staffing.

Mr. Millan

Copies of the memorandum "Staffing of Secondary Schools in Scotland" and of my Department's Circular 714 were sent to all education authorities and to the teachers' and local authorities' associations. I have received comments from some of these bodies. I am arranging a series of discussions with interested bodies in the early autumn.

Mr. Dewar

Does my hon. Friend accept that everyone in Scotland is anxious to see the Government, particularly by a set of incentives, tackling the problems of staffing in the less fortunate areas, but will he also accept that there is anxiety in areas such as Aberdeen that it may be in the mind of the Government to impose ceilings which would not permit the maintenance of the present excellent staff-pupil ratio in this area? Has he anything to say to reassure us?

Mr. Millan

I do not want to add anything at the moment to the scheme adumbrated in Circular 714 but we are anxious to have a scheme of distribution which will improve the position in areas which at present suffer from an acute teacher shortage.

Mr. MacArthur

Will the hon. Gentleman now answer the question I put to him earlier? Will he give the House an assurance that there is no question of direction of teachers being resorted to to ease the shortage in these difficult areas?

Mr. Millan

I have answered that already; there is no question of direction.