HC Deb 27 January 1969 vol 776 cc932-3
30. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services the market value of the securities held by the National Insurance Reserve Fund and the National Insurance Fund, respectively, at the end of 1968, with comparable figures at the end of 1964.

Mr. Swingler

The market value of the securities held by the National Insurance Reserve Fund and the National Insurance Fund, respectively, at the 31st December, 1968, were £704 million and £88 million. Comparable figures for 31st December, 1964, were £874 million and £188 million.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

In the light of those figures, can the Minister clear up the question of whether the £200 million which was supposed to have been transferred from the Reserve Fund to the Fund was £200 million at market value or £200 million nominal?

Mr. Swingler

£200 million at market value, of which £50 million was transferred in December, 1968.

Lord Balniel

Does the Minister recollect that we were informed that this transfer of £200 million from the National Health Reserve Fund was to meet special payments during the winter—for example, increases in sickness or unemployment benefit? If no such payments have to be made, will it be returned to the Reserve Fund?

Mr. Swingler

I said that we would have to see how the situation worked out. The transfer is not for the purpose of any special payment. When the Motion was presented, I said that the transfer was being made because the National Insurance Fund had become low, as had been occurring over a long period of time.

31. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what were the annual deficits on the working of the National Insurance Fund for the years 1964–65, 1965–66, 1966–67, respectively; and what he estimates will be the outturn in 1968–69 after making allowance for the transfer to the Fund of £200 million from the National Insurance Reserve Fund.

Mr. Swingler

There was a deficit of £21 million in 1964–65, a surplus of £25 million in 1965–66 and a deficit of £13 million in 1966–67. It is estimated that if transfers from the National Insurance Reserve Fund are left out of account, the deficit in 1968–69 will be something over £60 million, depending on the level of sickness during this winter.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Do those figures mean that the fall in the value of the securities held by the two Funds, which the right hon. Gentleman announced in his previous Answer, is mainly due to a falling off in the value of the securities in which the Fund is held?

Mr. Swingler

As, I think, the right hon. Gentleman will know, that is a trend which, unfortunately, has been occurring over a long time, with fluctuations over a period of 20 years. During the last four years when the right hon. Gentleman was Minister, I think that there was a fall in the value of these securities of about 11 per cent.