PROVISIONS APPLICABLE WHERE LOCAL AUTHORITY CARRIES OUT REMEDIAL OPERATIONS ON DISUSED TIP OF WHICH IT IS OWNER (Hansard, 21 January 1969)

§ Mr. Mason

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I am confident that this is a better Bill as the result of discussion in Standing Committee and the Amendments made on Report. I am grateful to all those, both inside and outside the House, who have made constructive suggestions.

Many of the criticisms and suggestions that have been made to me, more particularly those affecting Part I, which deals with the working tips, and those which are still part of the mining and quarrying industries, concern matters such as the siting of tips and the form and content of tipping rules which can and will be covered by the Regulations which I shall make in due course. The suggestions will not be overlooked when I come to make the Regulations which, like those made under the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954, will fill in the practical details 436 without which the statutory control over tips and tipping is incomplete.

I shall have the benefit of the advice of my Advisory Committee on Tip Safety on these regulations, and I shall consult other interested parties, as has long been customary in the case of Regulations under the 1954 Act. The Regulations will in due course be laid before Parliament.

Now a word about the main changes that have been made since the Bill was introduced. Clause 4 has been completely redrafted, and I am sure that we have now got right the periods of notice to be given when tipping operations begin, end or are resumed. We have also amended Clause 9 and limited the penalty of imprisonment to acts or omissions which would endanger the security of a tip. Imprisonment is clearly justified for such offences, since it is on the security of a tip that the safety of those in its vicinity depends.

We have also succeeded in making Part II clearer and simpler, notably by the amendment of Clause 36(2), and the consequential Amendments linked with it. The interpretation Clause now sets out clearly the conditions under which a tip is to be treated as unstable in terms which do not offend the professional susceptibilities of civil engineers, many of whom had difficulty with the original provision, however adequate it may have been from a legal point of view.

1 am particularly grateful to the Tips Committee for the help it has given with the Amendments to the Bill and for the progress it has been able to make with the guidance notes it is preparing to help local authority engineers with the initial inspection of disused tips. These guidance notes will be finalised within the next few days and should be available to local authorities well before Part II of the Bill as enacted comes into operation. They will provide a simple and economical procedure for tip inspection which can be brought into use without delay.

The Tips Committee has been busy. It has already met six times—four times since the Second Reading debate on 7th November, 1968—and will be meeting again in a few days. It has visited a coal tip complex in the East Midlands and china clay tips in Cornwall and Devon, and plans to visit South Wales 437 towards the end of March to study the special conditions there. This does not mean that the Committee members, as individuals, are ignorant of tipping problems in South Wales. Several members and two of the Committee's assessors have intimate knowledge of conditions there. It will then be in a position to give me expert guidance backed by first-hand experience in the preparation of the Regulations which I shall make under the Bill.

The Committee has now received from the National Coal Board a draft code of practice on tipping operations. The hon. Members for Honiton (Mr. Emery) and for Hereford (Mr. Gibson-Watt) have waved this document about. It is, indeed, an impressive and most valuable piece of work, embodying the results of all the Coal Board's experience and research to date. The Board and its advisers have clearly put in a lot of effort in order to make it a thorough and comprehensive document. The Committee will wish to study it carefully both as a background to the regulations on which it will be advising me and with a view to issuing guidance to cover tipping problems generally.

The Committee has in hand also a survey of the research on problems related to tips which is in progress or intended, and has written round to universities and technical colleagues as well as to other bodies of many kinds at home and abroad which may have something to contribute.

This is a full programme and makes heavy demands on busy people. I feel sure that the House would not wish me to let the occasion pass without my paying a tribute to the generosity with which Mr. Bullen and his team of experts are devoting their time, energy and professional skills to the subject of tip safety.

The Bill has a simple objective—to prevent another Aberfan. But in order to do justice to the interests of the public, of management and workers, and of those on whom the costs will fall, its provisions are complex. Part I needs the backing of extensive Regulations, as I have already said, and will be part of the mines and quarries safety legislation. Part II, which is really a separate Bill designed to deal with the accumulated debris of centuries, is virtually complete in itself. Expensive powers are given to 438 local authorities, but they are made subject to elaborate safeguards; there is even a measure of retrospection to protect the interests of owners who are not responsible for the dangerous condition of their tips.

The State, too, will play its part, since the grant provisions of Clause 25 have been widely drawn to make sure that safety is not prejudiced because owners or local authorities lack the resources needed. But, most important of all, the Bill creates conditions in which owners have every incentive to keep their tips safe, and local authorities have powers to keep them up to the mark, so that slides should be prevented, not merely cleared up.

The Bill was given a warm welcome when it was introduced. Both sides of the House were in full agreement that it was urgently needed. It has moved quickly through Committee, thanks to the helpful co-operation of hon. Members opposite, and I hope that it will be equally well received in another place. It will also give general satisfaction to local authorities which have felt the lack of adequate powers to deal with dangerous tips in the past. The public at large will, no doubt, be equally relieved that the spoil that mines and quarries have spewed out of the earth through the centuries can, in future, be subject to proper examination and supervision backed up by adequate statutory powers. H.M. Inspectors and local authorities will have ample powers in their own spheres to act quickly in case of danger and will use them. I have no doubt that those who live and work in the shadow of tips in Wales, of bings in Scotland, muck stacks in Yorkshire or spoil heaps elsewhere in England will feel easier when this House has done its part and made the provision needed to ensure that tips are tackled and tamed.

§ Mr. Gibson-Watt

The Minister has given us a short but lucid speech in commending the Third Reading. We all know the reason for the Bill. The graves on the mountain above Aberfan are a lasting reminder of why it was necessary. On Second Reading, we on this side gave an assurance that we would not delay the Bill. Four days only in Committee, as the Minister was gracious 439 to say, was proof of that. We believe that we have caused improvement to be made in the Bill, and we think that further improvements should be made in another place. There have been some major matters on which we have disagreed with the Minister—the Tip Safety Committee, the Mines Inspectorate, the question of retrospection and one or two other things. On Report, the Parliamentary Secretary said that the Government would look again at the exchange of views over limiting imprisonment for acts against property, though he made no promises. We hope that there may be further changes on that in another place.

My hon. Friends have contributed to the Bill throughout from their experience and knowledge. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden), who has lately taken over responsibility for power matters on this side of the House, was debarred from taking part in Committee, but he has given us all a great deal of good advice, and he spoke tonight on Report. We wish him well in his dealings with the coal industry, as in other power matters.

My hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) has played an important part throughout the Bill, and in his usual style he left no one in any doubt about his views. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Fylde (Colonel Lancaster), with his experience in the coal industry, has given us much practical advice, which we have appreciated, and we have had valuable contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch), Meriden (Mr. Speed) and Poole (Mr. Murton). We can justly claim to have played some part in helping the Government to improve the Bill.

We have, happily, avoided any party differences or recriminations. The back-cloth of the Bill was much too sombre for that. We have sought to aid the Minister in his aim to bring the legislation to this stage. We have often disagreed with the Government view, and the Minister has several times bent over backwards to meet us on some points. We thank him for that.

We can only hope that the Bill will prevent further danger from tips. Let no one put too much faith in legislation. 440 It is on personalities that the responsibility will always lie, and on the vigilant determination of those in charge in the coal and other industries to have the vision, initiative and proper training to avoid disaster.