§ Before making any regulation with respect to any matter on mining with respect to which it appears to the Minister requisite or expedient to make provision for the purpose of ensuring the security or stability of tips to which this Act applies, for securing that land on which tipping operations are to be carried out is satisfactory for the purpose and otherwise for carrying this Act into effect the Minister shall consult the Tip Safety Committee.—[Sir J. Eden.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Sir John Eden (Bournemouth, West)I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
We have tabled this new Clause because we want to be certain that before making any regulations concerning the security or stability of tips and the suitability of land for tipping the Minister shall consult the Tip Safety Committee.
In our consideration of this point, we have very much in mind the recommendations of the tribunal which inquired into the Aberfan disaster. I will mention some passages from that Report so that the House may understand why we attach such importance to the new Clause. I wish to underline at the outset what was said in paragraph 283:
The disaster teaches several broad lessons relative to tips in general. The first is that they should all be regarded as potentially dangerous. The second is that they should all be treated as engineering structures …The clear recommendation was made later in the Report that a National Tip Safety Committee should be created. Recommendation X on page 131 said:A National Tip Safety Committee should be appointed to advise the Minister and to co-ordinate research into the problem of tip safety …This Committee was established to advise the Minister in the exercise of his responsibility for the safety and inspection of all tips. But the Minister appeared rather reluctant to consult it, at any rate in the first place.On the first day of the proceedings in Committee, the Minister sought to offer some explanation for his failure to consult. It was a pretty lame excuse. As recorded in col. 8 of the OFFICIAL 393 REPORT of the Committee for 19th November last year, he said:
I had intended meeting that Committee …that is the Tip Safety Committee—this morning, but this Committee …that is Standing Committee B—has taken preference".That was a lame excuse for he should clearly have consulted that Committee well in advance of proceedings in the Standing Committee.He went on to tell the Standing Committee that the Tip Safety Committee was busy preparing guidance:
particularly for local authorities … so that they are ready when the Bill goes through."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 19th November, 1968, c. 8.]Later in the same debate, as reported in col. 17, he said that the Tip Safety Committee was already preparing its first draft for guidance to the local authorities which would amount to what he called a "code of guidance" on tips.Can we be sure that the regulations will be based upon that code? Just how comprehensive will the guidance be? I assume that it will not be concerned solely with tips that might constitute a danger, but that it will cover all the matters referred to in Appendix F of the tribunal report. Appendix F was based on the memorandum by Sir Andrew Bryan, a former member of the National Coal Board and one time Chief Inspector of Mines. In that memorandum reference was made to the nature of the subsoil, the slope of the ground, presence of water, proximity to places of work and houses, to various methods of tipping, to the nature of material to be tipped, to the safe height of a tip, symptoms of instability in a tip and to the system of inspection required in different circumstances.
The House would be glad to hear from the Minister on this important matter and to know what progress has been made. It will wish to be assured that the Tip Safety Committee is regarded by him and his Department as a permanent source of advice and guidance whose duties will not be considered to have ended just because the code of guidance has been prepared. I am sorry to have to press the Minister on these points, for it should not be necessary to do so, but he has not made it easy 394 for us to find with whom he has consulted on these complex engineering matters. He seemed so reluctant to take counsel with the Tip Safety Committee before preparing the Bill that we want to be sure that he does so before making regulations.
The Tip Safety Committee is a body of experts, a source of professional advice of a specialised nature in whom the public have faith. We are not prepared to leave the question of consultation to generalised reassurances of good will. We want the obligation on the Minister to be clearly laid down in the Bill.
§ Mr. James Scott-Hopkins (Derbyshire, West)I wish to be quite clear on a rather more minor matter than that which has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden). It is whether or not we can be quite certain that the Tip Safety Committee will be charged with responsibility in regard to quarries settling ponds and slurry ponds.
The right hon. Gentleman may know that on 8th February last year in my constituency the retaining dam of a settling pond burst and there was damage to property and to high roads. Luckily there was no loss of life, but that might have been suffered. This was at Stoney Middleton. I want to be quite sure that the Tip Safety Committee will be charged with the duty of looking into these matters and making recommendations to the Minister concerning settling ponds and their dams. I tried at the time to find whose responsibility this was. It came to light that it was nobody's responsibility to inspect this type of slurry pond, or "dangerous tip" under the new definition in Clause 2 of this Bill. It was not the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility. It was not the responsibility of the Minister of Housing and Local Government. Nobody seemed to be responsible for inspecting and controlling. Local authorities had no power to act.
I seek an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that in future there will be continuing surveillance of such operations, that the right hon. Gentleman's mines inspectors will be charged in the future of ensuring that slurry and tailing ponds are operated safely, and that the 395 Tip Safety Committee is charged with making recommendations to the right hon. Gentleman.
§ 10.30 p.m.
§ Mr. MasonI welcome the Shadow Minister of Power. He has appeared at Question Time on power matters, but this was his maiden speech on power. He did not take part in the proceedings in Committee, but we welcome his voice on Report and Third Reading.
I do not treat this matter lightly. Although the question of consultation with the Tip Safety Committee was dealt with at length in Standing Committee, it arose out of my honesty, because I confessed to the Standing Committee that I had not met the Tip Safety Committee, although I had met the Chairman of that Committee. The reason was that I did not want to interfere with the operations of the Committee. It was making a number of visits, gathering information, and advising my Safety and Health Division. For those various reasons, I did not call in the Committee for consultations, but I met its Chairman.
I want to spell out briefly that there is no need for the Clause. First, the Tip Safety Committee will remain in being as long as there is work for it to do. It will be helping with the preparation of regulations. Then it will be advising on any changes that may be necessary in the light of its experience or knowledge. Secondly, I gave strong assurances in Standing Committee—I refer hon. Members to columns 16–17 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 19th November—that the Committee would be consulted on the many regulations that we may have to frame following the Bill. These regulations will necessarily be drafted against a civil engineering background. It is in their preparation that the Committee can make one of its most effective contributions.
The hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) argued that because of its background the Committee can be useful as distinct from the Mines Inspectorate. Therefore, it will be kept on as long as it can give advice and guidance to me, and possibly long after the regulations have been framed. Thirdly, it is unusual for advisory committees to 396 be mentioned in a Statute. My Nuclear Safety Advisory Committee and my Advisory Committee on Research and Development have no statutory existence, but they are none the worse for that. Fourthly, the present arrangement allows the maximum flexibility both in the Committee's terms of reference and in its composition to meet the changing circumstances.
Therefore, although fears may be expressed based on the Committee's not having a statutory base, I assure the House that the Committee will remain in being for as long as there is work for it to do. It is pressing ahead with its notes for guidance of local authorities, which will be an extensive and detailed document. I hope that it will not be long before it is available. The National Coal Board has already produced its code of practice on tipping operations, which in itself is a mammoth document.
I assure the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Scott-Hopkins) that the Committee is also considering the problem of disused lagoons. The covering of settling ponds is a matter for the Mines Inspectorate, which is working with the Committee on that aspect.
§ Mr. Scott-HopkinsWill the Mines Inspectorate have a continuing responsibililty for settling ponds under the Bill when enacted?
§ Mr. MasonAs regards a settling pond at an active mine, or one which is being used as an active spoil heap, the Mines Inspectorate has responsibility for that, too.
§ Mr. Gibson-WattThe Minister's reply disappoints us. What he said about discussions with the Tip Safety Committee is entirely accurate, but we still consider that the discussions should have taken place earlier. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had been honest. I am glad he was. The direct question was put to him by several of my hon. Friends and myself, and his answer left us in no doubt that he should have treated with the Tip Safety Committee at an earlier time.
In reply to the case put today by my hon. Friends the Members for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) and for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Scott-Hopkins), the 397 Minister said that the Tip Safety Committee would be kept on, possibly, long after the regulations had been made, and a little later he said that it would stay there as long as there was work for it to do. That is not going far enough. We wish to have proper provision for it written into the Bill. The whole spirit of the Aberfan Report is that there was a lack of civil engineering knowledge and that, where there was such knowledge, it was not adequately used. Within the excellent membership of the Tip Safety Committee there are several gentlemen with civil engineering knowledge.
| Division No. 46.] | AYES | [10.39 p.m. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Heseltine, Michael | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Holland, Philip | Pym, Francis |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hooson, Emlyn | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Hordern, Peter | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Blaker, Peter | Hornby, Richard | Rhys, Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) | Hunt, John | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Body, Richard | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Boyle, Rt. Un. Sir Edward | Iremonger, T. L. | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Scott, Nicholas |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Kershaw, Anthony | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Kirk, Peter | Sharples, Richard |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Kitson, Timothy | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &Whitby) |
| Cooke, Robert | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Crouch, David | Lane, David | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Smith, John (London & W'minstar) |
| Dance, James | Lubbock, Eric | Stodart, Anthony |
| Dean, Paul | MacArthur, Ian | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Maginnis, John E. | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Drayson, G. B. | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Eden, Sir John | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Elliott, R. W.(N'c'tlc-upon-Tyne. N.) | Monro, Hector | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Emery, Peter | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Murton, Oscar | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Fortescue, Tim | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Worsley, Marcus |
| Foster, Sir John | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Wright, Esmond |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Nott, John | Wylie, N. R. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | Page, Graham (Crosby) | |
| Goodhew, Victor | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Grieve, Percy | Percival Ian | Mr. Jasper More and |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Pounder, Rafton | Mr. Anthony Grant. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Coe, Denis | Fernyhough, E. |
| Alldritt, Walter | Crawshaw, Richard | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Dalyell, Tarn | Forrester, John |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Fowler, Gerry |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Freeson, Reginald |
| Bishop, E. S. | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Gardner, Tony |
| Blackburn, F. | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Dempsey, James | Gregory, Arnold |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Dewar, Donald | Grey, Charles (Durham) |
| Booth, Albert | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) |
| Bottomley, Rt- Hn. Arthur | Dickens, James | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Dobson, Ray | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Doig, Peter | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Buchan, Norman | Eadie, Alex | Hannan, William |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Ellis, John | Harper, Joseph |
| Cant, R. B. | Ensor, David | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Haseldine, Norman |
§ The generalised assurance which the Minister has given does not go as far as we wish. We attach great importance to the continued and permanent position of the Tip Safety Committee. Its rôle should be specifically provided for in the Bill. We know that the Committee will help the right hon. Gentleman with the regulations, but we consider that there is continuing need for its important work. For those reasons, I advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide on the new Clause.
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes, 95. Noes, 140.
399| Henig, Stanley | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | McNamara, J. Kevin | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Hooley, Frank | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Rose, Paul |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.) | Rowlands, E. |
| Howie, W. | Manuel, Archie | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Mapp, Charles | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Silverman, Julius |
| Hunter, Adam | Mendelson, John | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Hynd, John | Millan, Bruce | Small, William |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Thomas, Rt. Hin. George |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Judd, Frank | Moyle, Roland | Thornton, Ernest |
| Kenyon, Clifford | Murray, Albert | Urwin, T. W. |
| Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Newens, Stan | Varley, Eric G. |
| Lawson, George | Ogden, Eric | Watkins David (Consett) |
| Leadbitter, Ted | O'Malley, Brian | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Orme, Stanley | Whitaker, Ben |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Oswald, Thomas | Whitlock, William |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Loughlin, Charles | Palmer, Arthur | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Luard, Evan | Park, Trevor | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| McCann, John | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| MacColl, James | Price, William (Rugby) | |
| Macdonald, A. H. | Probert, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W. | Mr. J. D. Concannon and |
| Maclennan, Robert | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Mr. Neil McBride. |