HC Deb 13 February 1969 vol 777 cc1553-5
17. Mr. Kenneth Baker

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the profits of the State-owned licensed premises in Carlisle and Scotland have declined from £284,281 in 1963–64 to £186,896 in 1967–68; and what steps he is asking to reverse the trend.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Since 1963 there has been a progressive increase in costs, which, in pursuance of Government policy, have not been fully passed on to the consumer. There is constant search for improvement in the efficiency and profitability of State management.

Mr. Baker

Does not the Minister agree that State-owned pubs are a very bad investment for the British taxpayer, since their profits go down while the profits of private brewers and pubs go up? From his answer, do I take it that the lucky citizens of Carlisle, Gretna and Cromarty are enjoying subsidised beer prices?

Mr. Rees

What it means is that they get cheaper beer because they drink beer from State concerns.

Mr. Ron Lewis

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the profits would have been much greater had not so much money been ploughed back in improving the State management schemes for hotels and pubs?

Mr. Rees

Yes, a great deal of investment is taking place.

18. Mr. Kenneth Baker

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will sell the licensed premises owned by the State in Carlisle, Gretna and Cromarty.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

This suggestion does not commend itself either to my right hon. Friend or to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Mr. Baker

Does the Minister not recognise that State pubs are the last sacred red cows of Socialism, and would it not be better to sell them and spend the proceeds on better schools, hospitals and roads?

Mr. Rees

Mr. David Lloyd George of the day would be very surprised to find himself cast as the progenitor of a Socialist red cow, but we think that they are a good investment and provide a good service.

Mr. Ron Lewis

Will not my lion. Friend confirm that all previous Tory Home Secretaries have refused to denationalise the State pubs, and is not this good evidence that they should continue as they are?

Mr. Rees

One other factor to take into account is that there is little doubt that private enterprise would shut down the brewery at Carlisle, which would add to the unemployment problem.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the main reason why the Conservative Party did not denationalise these pubs was that the local Conservative hon. Members represented to the Ministers involved that the likely increase in the cost of beer might lose them their seats?

Mr. Rees

It is true that some politicians are two faced.

Mr. Hogg rose

Mr. Baker

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman raises what I think is his point of order now, he will prevent his right hon. and learned Friend intervening from the Front Bench.

Mr. Hogg

While accepting from the Under-Secretary of State that the true progenitor of this scheme was Mr. David Lloyd George, will he not recognise that, quite apart from the question of private enterprise against public enterprise, the central Government are not necessarily the best controllers of a few localised pubs in a given district and that there are alternative ways in which they could be organised without prejudice to employment in Carlisle?

Mr. Rees

I agree that public ownership has many forms.

Mr. Baker

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the thoroughly Socialist doctrinaire Answers that those supplementary questions have received—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman must give notice in the conventional way.

Mr. Baker

I would beg leave to give notice that I will seek to raise the matter after the Conservatives have won the next General Election.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman must take note of what the Chair says.

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