HC Deb 10 February 1969 vol 777 cc858-60
3. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what further steps he is taking to reduce the number of non-industrial civil servants.

Mrs. Hart

We continue to keep Departmental manpower requirements under regular and detailed scrutiny. The special reviews of Civil Service manning, under the leadership of Sir Robert Bellinger, announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister last year, are going forward, but Sir Robert and his colleagues must be permitted time to develop their views.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Is not the real way to secure a reduction to reduce the functions of government? Can the right hon. Lady say what action has been taken in that respect?

Mrs. Hart

That raises general questions of public and, in particular, social policy. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman will expect me to answer on that count in reply to his question.

4. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many non-industrial civil servants are employed at the latest available date; and how this figure compares with the numbers employed a year ago.

9. Mr. David Howell

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what proposals he has for reducing departmental staff during 1969; and on what basis these will be reported to the House of Commons.

Mrs. Hart

I would refer the right hon. Member to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) on 24th January. A statement to the House on the size of the non-industrial Civil Service in 1969–70 will be made during the next few weeks.—[Vol. 776, c. 202.]

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Does not that answer reflect the unhappy consequences of a lack of urgency apparent in the right hon. Lady's previous answer?

Mrs. Hart

Not in the least. As I think the right hon. Gentleman is aware from the statement of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the debate on the Fulton Report before Christmas, we are perfectly aware of the need to fulfil the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend just over a year ago. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find that when the statement comes it will bear out our expectations.

Mr. Howell

Is the right hon. Lady aware that even in the Civil Service Department, which, as far as I can make out, is her Department, people are now publicly urging that there should be a much more radical approach to the whole business of control of staff and allocation of tasks and functions? Will the Minister look into the matter and report back to the House?

Mrs. Hart

One of the main purposes of the new Civil Service Department is to assist in implementing some of the Fulton recommendations that bore on this point. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the Fulton Committee had a great many things to say which bear on it. It is a matter for the civil servants in the Civil Service Department to assist in the kind of planning that will enable those expectations to be realised.

Mr. Ridsdale

Is the right hon. Lady aware that since 1964 the number of civil servants has gone up by 58,300, and in local government by 323,000? Is she aware that her Answer is nothing but complacent in regard to the reduction proposed?

Mrs. Hart

There is no complacency in this matter. A year ago my right hon. Friend gave a clear undertaking to the House, and this undertaking will be fulfilled. The hon. Gentleman might wish to refresh his memory of the Fulton debate before Christmas, when a number of the background factors were explained for specific increases over the last two or three years, in specific areas, most of which are concerned—and this is the important point to bear in mind—with giving a better public service to people throughout the social services.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Long answers mean fewer Questions.

Mr. Molloy

Can my right hon. Friend explain how she reconciles the demands made by hon. Gentlemen opposite, acting as constituency Members, for all sorts of things in the social service, with the fact that they are not prepared to provide the staff to carry out their own demands?

Mrs. Hart

I think that my hon. Friend points to a quality of the Opposition which we have observed frequently over the last two months in relation to the financial commitments they wish the Government to take on as well as the manpower commitments.