HC Deb 30 April 1969 vol 782 cc1447-59

Question again proposed, That the Clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Speaker

I understand that the hon. Member for Howden (Mr. Bryan) has the floor.

3.50 p.m.

Mr. Paul Bryan (Howden)

Mr. Speaker, when we broke off for the luncheon interval, I had been arguing the value of the Parliamentary Question to hon. Members, the value to the consumer of his accessibility to his Member of Parliament, and of the hon. Member's accessibility to the Minister. I argued, further, that this was often the consumer's or the constituent's only access to authority.

I also argued that if we took away the Parliamentary Question, nothing had been conceived to take its place. Neither the Ombudsman nor the Consumer Council nor any other device would take its place. I summed up by saying, that as a result of the passing of this Bill, the consumer would be in a markedly weaker position. He would have lost his access to authority through his Member of Parliament, and nothing credible was being put in its place. Unless it is a practical impossibility for the Parliamentary Question to remain in its present position, this Clause should be passed.

What are the possible snags? What is the impracticability of this? Is the new Minister in a position to deal with this sort of problem and has he the necessary staff? I do not think that it can be said that he is short of staff. When we examined the matter in Committee, we found that no fewer than 400 civil servants would be allotted to the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. Whenever we asked how he would pass his time and use his staff, the Postmaster-General came back to his wireless and television problems. However, there are at the moment 105 civil servants occupied in this Department. What will the remaining 295 do? If the Postmaster-General seeks leave to speak again, we would like to know from him exactly how his staff will be employed.

One thing is certain. He has enough staff to deal with Questions. Again, in Committee we discussed his Ministerial assistance, and we could not think what the Parliamentary Secretary to this Minister would do. It was only because of our affection for the present Assistant Postmaster-General that we thought that this would be a nice way for him to pass, if not the autumn, the late summer of his life. However, if it is proved that another junior Minister is required to deal with the number of Questions likely to come, assuming they continue, we shall not quibble about it.

In the Report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries of its investigation into Ministerial Control of the Nationalised Industries, it was pointed out that the duties of the sponsoring Minister were, first, to exercise overall control of policy and, second, to safeguard the responsibility of the industry to the consumer. That is really what we are trying to make sure that he does now.

The second practical snag which is sometimes brought up is that Questions in Parliament are an obstacle to the smooth functioning of the Corporation. Let us consider for a moment the effect of Parliamentary Questions on the Post Office. To get a fair and authoritative view on it, one can do no better than refer to the evidence of Sir Ronald German, who for many years was in a very senior position in the Post Office.

In his evidence to the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, the Chairman asked him, at Question 26: Do you find, apart from what you have already told us, that the management of the Post Office is influenced by the parliamentary control as it now exists? Sir Ronald replied: I do not think there is any doubt that the existing form of parliamentary control has a market effect on the Post Office. It affects the Post Office at all levels …. The effect of having Ministers in the House responsible for day to day operations of the organisation, liable to be questioned in Parliament by Members on day to day operations of the organisation, has a profound effect right down through the organisation.

Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)

Would my hon. Friend tell us whether there is any reference in that evidence to the effect that Parliamentary Questions are dangerous? That was one of the points made to hon. Members.

Mr. Bryan

Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to continue on this line of argument, because I think that his point will be answered in a moment.

A little later in his evidence, Sir Ronald said: It is not the problem created by the occasional Parliamentary Question, the amount of time involved in answering a Question or indeed the amount of time involved in answering letters from Members of Parliament. I think that that is the answer to my hon. Friend. It is the inhibiting effect in the organisation of parliamentary control. Apparently it is not the Question itself, but Parliamentary control in a general way which inhibits the Corporation.

A colleague of Sir Ronald's went on to say: It is rather difficult to disentangle the effects of parliamentary control as such from the effects of being a Civil Service Department and having Civil Service procedures, not all of which are laid down because of the needs of parliamentary control …. Whereas there is nothing wrong with that, it is bound to lead to a defensive type of attitude of mind, especially in people who are of an impressionable type. We cannot blind ourselves to the fact that probably it has some inhibiting factors about it.

Later still in his evidence, Sir Ronald said: The advantages of parliamentary control surely are rather these, that here is a public service affecting almost every individual person in the community, and with parliamentary control it is the individual member of the community who feels that at least his representatives are able to question the people in charge about something which he feels is of vital concern to him. It is this aspect, I would have thought, which is important from the general community point of view. There we have a balanced view. Clearly, it is not altogether welcomed at the Post Office, but those in charge realise that, in a monopoly position of this sort and in a service industry, they must expect this amount of supervision.

Another point on the question of how inhibiting this is in a Corporation was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) and my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), when they referred to the possibility of this sort of atmosphere adversely affecting the recruitment of first-class talent of high managerial calibre. However, I do not think that a case for that has been made.

In the Select Committee's Report on Ministerial Control of the Nationalised Industries, paragraph 294 describes the difficulties of personnel selection at that level. It does not say that it is because of the difficult atmosphere in the nationalised industries, but that personnel selection is not done very well. The present Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity said, when she was Minister of Transport, that she thought that Ministers were too dependent on available knowledge that "may be knocking about" and on general reputations. That is the scientific basis on which they make their selections—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will link what he is saying with the new Clause.

4.0 p.m.

Mr. Bryan

I am cutting down the passage for that reason, Mr. Speaker. I have now finished it. The point I was making was that, if there is any reason why we do not get the best management in the Post Office or in public corporations now, it is not Parliamentary accountability or Parliamentary Questions.

Mention has been made of the Post Office's monopoly position. Superficially, it may appear to be a monopoly like any other monopoly, but in fact it is the monopoly of all monopolies. It is unique. It is a special case. When nationalisation was introduced in the 1940s, we thought of the fuel and power industries in general in terms of monopoly. In fact, to my surprise, they have become highly competitive with each other. All sorts of things have happened which we could not foresee, like the rise of the gas industry and so on.

Thus, a great deal of competition is looking after the consumer to a certain extent, whether or not that extent is satisfactory. The nationalised airways compete with other countries' airlines while the railways compete with the motorcar, which is one of the reasons why the railways suffer. But there is no competition for the Post Office in the majority of its dealings.

We all know the danger of monopoly to the customer. It fails to react to him. In addition, it fails to react in its business dealings and the best possible illustration of that is the one fresh in our minds—the two-tier postal system in its early days. There was chaos for the first two or three weeks, and, clearly, any competitive industry would have reacted and changed straight away. The original idea was that the situation would be reviewed after three months but within three days one could see what was happening. The Post Office was well off the mark and it was Parliamentary accountability which got us the debate. We were well-informed of what was happening all over the country and were able to tell the Postmaster-General about it. It was because of this accountability that the right hon. Gentleman made the alterations he did.

In the light of this tremendous argument, which I think everyone agrees with, I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman has not taken a more conciliatory line. On Clause 13, earlier, he put up the white flag after nothing more than a shot across his bows. We have had many hours of debate and many broadsides have been fired at him, but he is still unwilling to include the new Clause, which he practically admits to be harmless. We cannot understand why we have been required to debate for so long something which at least would do no harm and which, clearly, is wanted by a majority of hon. Members.

No method has been found to protect the consumer superior to parliamentary accountability and Questions. The Minister is equipped to deal with the matter. The embarrassment, if it is embarrassment, is often beneficial to the Post Office. The argument against Questions about day-to-day operations may be tenable in the other nationalised industries, but the Post Office is a special situation where it is not. Therefore, whether the new Clause is passed or not, one of the most important things will be the Minister's interpretation in future of what is day-to-day and what is not.

My hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) said that he depended very much on the Clerks at the Table for interpretation of whether a Question is acceptable or not and I dare say that, in turn, they are influenced by what they know the Minister himself will accept. I hope that the pattern is set early in the life of the Corporation whereby the Minister, whatever the Act, as it then will be, says, will accept a very wide range of Questions and will remember that what may be trivia to a Minister is a real grievance to a constituent.

I finish on a different subject. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will allow my hon. Friends who wish to speak to continue this debate. I do not think that you were present this morning when the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) made a two-hour speech. It was entirely welcome, enjoyable, instructive and useful, but it had the effect that a number of my hon. Friends, who had waited all through last night's debate and all through this morning's debate with speeches prepared, were not able to speak. It is an unusual and unique situation. I ask you to consider this situation when the Closure is put, as no doubt it will be.

Mr. Joseph Harper (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)

rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

The House proceeded to a Division—

Sir Harmar Nicholls

(seated and covered): On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. In accepting the Motion for the Closure, it may well be that justice is not being done to the argument. I know that some of my hon. Friends want to speak in support of the Postmaster-General's case. All we have heard are speeches opposed to it. We have not had a balanced debate if those who hold views similar to the right hon. Gentleman are not allowed to express them from the back benches.

Mr. Speaker

The question of accepting a Motion for the Closure is a matter for Mr. Speaker.

The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 183.

Division No. 179.] AYES [4.7 p.m.
Albu, Austen Harper, Joseph Morris, John (Aberavon)
Anderson, Donald Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Archer, Peter Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Murray, Albert
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Haseldine, Norman Neal, Harold
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Hattersley, Roy Newens, Stan
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Oakes, Gordon
Bagier, Gorgon A. T. Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Ogden, Eric
Barnes, Michael Hilton, W. S. O'Malley, Brian
Barnett, Joel Hooley, Frank Oram, Albert E.
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Orbach, Maurice
Bidwell, Sydney Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Orme, Stanley
Bishop, E. S. Howie, W. Oswald, Thomas
Blackburn, F. Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Hughes, Roy (Newport) Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Booth, Albert Hunter, Adam Paget, R. T.
Boston, Terence Hynd, John Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Boyden, James Janner, Sir Barnett Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Pavitt, Laurence
Brooks, Edwin Jeger, George (Goole) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Pentland, Norman
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Buchan, Norman Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Price, William (Rugby)
Cant, R. B. Jones, Dan (Burnley) Probert, Arthur
Carmichael, Neil Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Rankin, John
Carter-Jones, Lewis Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Rees, Merlyn
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Chapman, Donald Judd, Frank Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Coleman, Donald Kelley, Richard Robertson, John (Paisley)
Conlan, Bernard Kenyon, Clifford Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Rose, Paul
Crawshaw, Richard Lawson, George Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Dalyell, Tam Leadbitter, Ted Ryan, John
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Lee, John (Reading) Sheldon, Robert
Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Lipton, Marcus Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Lomas, Kenneth Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)
Delargy, Hugh Luard, Evan Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Dell, Edmund Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Dempsey, James Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Silverman, Julius
Dickens, James McBride, Neil Skeffington, Arthur
Dobson, Ray McCann, John Slater, Joseph
Doig, Peter MacColl, James Small, William
Driberg, Tom Macdonald, A. H. Spriggs, Leslie
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) McGuire, Michael Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) McKay, Mrs. Margaret Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Eadie, Alex Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Edelman, Maurice Mackle, John Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Mackintosh, John P. Taverne, Dick
Ellis, John Maclennan, Robert Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
English, Michael McNamara, J. Kevin Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Ennals, David MacPherson, Malcolm Thornton, Ernest
Ensor, David Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Tinn, James
Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Tomney, Frank
Finch, Harold Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Urwin, T. W.
Fletcher Raymond (Ilkeston) Manuel, Archie Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mapp, Charles Watkins, David (Consett)
Foley, Maurice Marks, Kenneth Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Marquand, David Wellbeloved, James
Ford, Ben Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard White, Mrs. Eirene
Forrester, John Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Whitlock, William
Fowler Gerry Mayhew, Christopher Wilkins, W. A.
Freeson, Reginald Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Galpern, Sir Myer Mendelson, John Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Gardner, Tony Mikardo, Ian Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Garrett, W. E. Millan, Bruce Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Miller, Dr. M. S. Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Gregory, Arnold Molloy, William Woof, Robert
Grey, Charles (Durham) Moonman, Eric
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Griffiths, Eddie (Brghtside) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Mr. Ernest G. Perry and
Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Mr. Alan Fitch.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
NOES
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Harris, Frederic (Croydon N. W.) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Astor, John Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Peel, John
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Harvie Anderson, Miss Percival, Ian
Balniel, Lord Hawkins, Paul Peyton, John
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Hay, John Pink, R. Bonner
Batsford, Brian Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pounder, Rafton
Bell, Ronald Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Heseltine, Michael Prior, J. M. L.
Berry, Hn. Anthony Higgins, Terence L. Pym, Francis
Bessell, Peter Hiley, Joseph Quennell, Miss J. M.
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Hill, J. E. B. Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Black, Sir Cyril Hirst, Geoffrey Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Holland, Philip Ridsdale, Julian
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Hooson, Emlyn Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Hordern, Peter Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Braine, Bernard Howell, David (Guildford) Royle, Anthony
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Hunt, John Russell, Sir Ronald
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hutchison, Michael Clark St. John-Stevas, Norman
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Iremonger, T. L. Scott, Nicholas
Bryan, Paul Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Scott-Hopkins, James
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Sharples, Richard
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Bullus, Sir Eric Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Silvester, Frederick
Burden, F. A. Jopling, Michael Sinclair, Sir George
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) Kaberry, Sir Donald Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Kerby, Capt. Henry Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Carlisle, Mark Kershaw, Anthony Speed, Keith
Channon, H. P. G. King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Stainton, Keith
Clark, Henry Kitson, Timothy Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Clegg, Walter Lancaster, Col. C. G. Stodart, Anthony
Costain, A. P. Lane, David Summers, Sir Spencer
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Tapsell, Peter
Crouch, David Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Cunningham, Sir Knox Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Dance, James Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Davidson, James, (Aberdeenshire, W.) Longden, Gilbert Temple, John M.
Dean, Paul Lubbock, Eric Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Drayson, G. B. MacArthur, Ian Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Eden, Sir John Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) McMaster, Stanley Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'le-upon-Tyne, N.) McNair-Wilson, M. (Walthamstow, E.) Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Emery, Peter McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Errington, Sir Eric Maginnis, John E. Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) Marten, Neil Walters, Dennis
Ewing, Mrs. Winifred Mawby, Ray Ward, Dame Irene
Eyre, Reginald Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Wells, John (Maidstone)
Farr John Mills, Peter (Torrington) Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Fortescue, Tim Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Wiggin, A. W.
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Monro, Hector Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Montgomery, Fergus Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) More, Jasper Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Glover, Sr Douglas Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Goodhart, Philip Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Goodhew Victor Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Worsley, Marcus
Gower, Raymond Murton, Oscar Wright, Esmond
Grant, Anthony Nabarro, Sir Gerald Younger, Hn. George
Gresham Cooke, R. Neave, Airey
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Nicholls, Sir Harmar TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gurden Harold Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Mr. Humphrey Atkins and
Hall-Davies, A. G. F. Onslow, Cranley Mr. Bernard Weatherill.
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Question put accordingly, That the Clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 201, Noes 206.

Division No. 180.] AYES [4.16 p.m.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Bell, Ronald Braine, Bernard
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Berry, Rt. Hn. Anthony Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Astor John Bessell, Peter Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Bidwell, Sydney Bryan, Paul
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Black, Sir Cyril Buck, Antony (Colchester)
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Bullus, Sir Eric
Balniel, Lord Booth, Albert Burden, F. A.
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Boyd-Carpenter, R. Hn. John Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)
Batsford, Brian Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)
Carlisle, Mark Hutchison, Michael Clark Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Channon, H. P. G. Iremonger, T. L. Prior, J. M. L.
Clark, Henry Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Pym, Francis
Costain, A. P. Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.) Quennell, Miss J. M.
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Crouch, David Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Crowder, F. P. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Cunningham, Sir Knox Jopling, Michael Ridsdale, Julian
Dance, James Kaberry, Sir Donald Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) Kerby, Capt. Henry Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Dean, Paul Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Royle, Anthony
Dickens, James Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Russell, Sir Ronald
Drayson, G. B. Kershaw, Anthony Ryan, John
Driberg, Tom King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) St. John-Stevas, Norman
Eden, Sir John Kitson, Timothy Scott, Nicholas
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Lancaster, Col. C. G. Scott-Hopkins, James
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'le-upon-Tyne, N.) Lane, David Sharples, Richard
Emery, Peter Lee, John (Reading) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Errington, Sir Eric Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Silvester, Frederick
Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Sinclair, Sir George
Ewing, Mrs. Winifred Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Eyre, Reginald Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Farr, John Longden, Gilbert Speed, Keith
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Lubbock, Eric Stainton, Keith
Fortescue, Tim MacArthur, Ian Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) McMaster, Stanley Stodart, Anthony
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) Summers, Sir Spencer
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) McNair-Wilson, Michael Tapsell, Peter
Glover, Sir Douglas McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Goodhart, Philip Maginnis, John E. Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Goodhew, Victor Marten Neil Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Gower, Raymond Maude, Angus Temple, John M.
Grant, Anthony Mawby, Ray Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Gresham Cooke, R. Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Mills, Peter (Torrington) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Gurden, Harold Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Monro, Hector Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Montgomery, Fergus Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) More, Jasper Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Walters, Dennis
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Ward, Dame Irene
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Weatherill, Bernard
Harvie Anderson, Miss Murton, Oscar Wells, John (Maidstone)
Hawkins, Paul Nabarro, Sir Gerald Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Hay, John Neave, Airey Wiggin, A. W.
Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Newens, Stan Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Nicholls, Sir Harmar Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Heseltine, Michael Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Higgins, Terence L. Onslow, Cranley Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Hiley, Joseph Orme, Stanley Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Hill, J. E. B. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Worsley, Marcus
Hirst, Geoffrey Page, John (Harrow, W.) Wright, Esmond
Holland, Philip Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) Younger, Hn. George
Hooson, Emlyn Peel, John
Hordern, Peter Percival, Ian TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Howell, David (Guildford) Peyton, John Mr. Hugh Jenkins and
Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Pink, R. Bonner Mr. Ian Mikardo.
Hunt, John Pounder, Rafton
NOES
Albu, Austen Carter-Jones, Lewis Edelman, Maurice
Anderson, Donald Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Archer, Peter Chapman, Donald Ellis, John
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Coleman, Donald English, Michael
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Conlan, Bernard Ennals, David
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Corbet, Mrs. Freda Ensor, David
Barnes, Michael Crawshaw, Richard Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)
Barnett, Joel Crossman Rt. Hn. Richard Finch, Harold
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Dalyell, Tam Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Bishop, E. S. Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Blackburn, F. Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Foley, Maurice
Blenkinsop, Arthur Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Ford, Ben
Boston, Terence Davies, Ifor (Gower) Forrester, John
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Fowler, Gerry
Boyden James Delargy, Hugh Freeson, Reginald
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Dell, Edmund Galpern, Sir Myer
Brooks, Edwin Dempsey, James Gardner, Tony
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Dewar, Donald Garrett, W. E.
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Dobson, Ray Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Doig, Peter Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)
Buchan, Norman Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Cant, R. B. Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Gregory, Arnold
Carmichael, Neil Eadie, Alex Grey, Charles (Durham)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mackie, John Rees, Merlyn
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Mackintosh, John P. Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Maclennan, Robert Robertson, John (Paisley)
Harper, Joseph McNamara, J. Kevin Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) MacPherson, Malcolm Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Rose, Paul
Haseldine, Norman Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Hattersley, Roy Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Manuel, Archie Sheldon, Robert
Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Mapp, Charles Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.
Hilton, W. S. Marks, Kenneth Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)
Hobden, Dennis Marquand, David Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Hooley, Frank Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Skeffington, Arthur
Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Mayhew, Christopher Slater, Joseph
Howie, W. Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Small, William
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Millan, Bruce Spriggs, Leslie
Hunter, Adam Miller, Dr. M. S. Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Hynd, John Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Moonman, Eric Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Janner, Sir Barnett Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Taverne, Dick
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Jeger, George (Goole) Morris, John (Aberavon) Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Thornton, Ernest
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Murray, Albert Tinn, James
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Neal, Harold Tomney, Frank
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Oakes, Gordon Urwin, T. W.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Ogden, Eric
Judd, Frank O'Malley, Brian Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Kelley, Richard Oram, Albert E. Watkins, David (Consett)
Kenyon, Clifford Orbach, Maurice Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Lawson, George Oswald, Thomas Wellbeloved, James
Leadbitter, Ted Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) White, Mrs. Eirene
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Owen, Will (Morpeth) Whitlock, William
Lipton, Marcus Paget, R. T. Wilkins, W. A.
Lomas, Kenneth Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Luard, Evan Parker, John (Dagenham) Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Pavitt, Laurence Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
McBride, Neil Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
McCann, John Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
MacColl, James Pentland, Norman Woof, Robert
Macdonald, A. H. Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
McGuire, Michael Price, William (Rugby) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
McKay, Mrs. Margaret Probert, Arthur Mr. Ernest G. Perry and
Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Rankin, John Mr. Alan Fitch.
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