HC Deb 14 April 1969 vol 781 cc785-7
12. Mrs. Joyce Butler

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will introduce legislation to safeguard the rights of patients in teaching hospitals; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Crossman

I strongly deprecate attempts to coerce patients to take part in teaching, more particularly since they contradict the clear assurance given to my hon. Friend by my predecessor when she moved new Clause 3 of Health Services and Public Health Bill. In view of recent disturbing evidence, I have gone into this question afresh and I can now give my hon. Friend an assurance that no teaching hospital makes treatment conditional on the patient consenting to participate in teaching.

Mrs. Butler

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he can make it clear that the assurance that he has just given does ensure that hospitals will not in future confine their services to patients who agree to co-operate in medical education, and that what he has just said supersedes the recent cases which have been reported to him where teaching hospitals have made treatment conditional on patients co-operating in teaching?

Mr. Crossman

I should like to put the matter in this way. I was not satisfied by the replies given to an investigating gentleman called Mr. Armstrong from three teaching hospitals, which seemed to imply something which did not accord with my predecessor's assurance. However, I went into it. In fact, the practice of none of these hospitals was to exclude anybody. So the situation was satisfactory. But I must admit that an impression was given by certain of the secretaries that a patient would not be encouraged to go if he was not prepared to accept the teaching.

Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan

While entirely agreeing with all that the right hon. Gentleman has said, may I ask him to make it quite clear that teaching cannot continue in teaching hospitals unless people are willing to be used as clinical material and that the overwhelming majority of patients in teaching hospitals are willing and glad to co-operate?

Mr. Crossman

I might add that my replies have applied mainly to the London hospitals where the problem arose. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Teaching hospitals obviously assume that the great majority of patients will not object. Indeed, they do not object. Some of them positively enjoy being important and interesting persons in the hospital. Nevertheless, we must preserve the right of the minority to object. The point of my answers was that what my predecessor said remains as clearly categoric as he said it.

Mr. Fortescue

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the position of child patients in this matter must be particularly safeguarded? Will he undertake that no child is used for teaching purposes in a hospital without the permission of its parents?

Mr. Crossman

I think I am right in saying that the assurance applies to the parents of a minor in the same way as it applies to the parents themselves.