HC Deb 14 April 1969 vol 781 cc915-20

Motion made, and Question put, That the Proceedings on the Parliament (No. 2) Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. O'Malley.]

The House proceeded to a Division

Mr. Peyton (seated and covered)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is very difficult for anyone to hear what is going on because of the considerable hubbub which takes place on the Treasury Bench almost perpetually when a Division is about to take place. A number of us were under the impression that the Whip did not move the suspension of the Standing Order, but moved that the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again. Those words were distinctly heard here. We ask for your guidance on why that Question and not the other was put.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)

The hon. Member will have an opportunity in a very short time to hear what the Motion was that was moved.

Mr. Peyton

Further to that point of order. It is now that I wish to ask what exactly is the Motion on which we are voting. You have been kind enough to say that in a few moments I shall have an opportunity to hear what the next Motion is. I am now asking which Motion was moved from the Treasury Bench.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The Question is, That the Proceedings on the Parliament (No. 2) Bill may be entered upon

and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed:—

The House having divided: Ayes 132, Noes 58.

Division No. 156.] AYES [10.10 p.m.
Anderson, Donald Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony O'Malley, Brian
Archer, Peter Gregory, Arnold Oram, Albert E.
Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) Grey, Charles (Durham) Orbach, Maurice
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Oswald, Thomas
Baxter, William Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Blackburn, F. Hamling, William Pavitt, Laurence
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Hannan, William Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Buchan, Norman Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Pentland, Norman
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Hattersley, Roy Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Carmichael, Neil Hazell, Bert Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Chapman, Donald Henig, Stanley Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)
Coleman, Donald Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Rees, Merlyn
Concannon, J. D. Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)
Crawshaw, Richard Hoy, James Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Hunter, Adam
Dalyell, Tam Hynd, John Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Irvine, sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Silverman, Julius
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Slater, Joseph
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Lawson, George Small, William
Delargy, Hugh Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Spriggs, Leslie
Dell, Edmund Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Dempsey, James Loughlin, Charles Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael
Dewar, Donald Lubbock, Eric Taverne, Dick
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Doig, Peter McCann, John Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Dunnett, Jack MacColl, James Tinn, James
Eadie, Alex Macdonald, A. H. Urwin, T. W.
Ellis, John Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Varley, Eric G.
Ennals, David Maclennan, Robert Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Ensor, David McNamara, J. Kevin Watkins, David (Consett)
Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Marks, Kenneth Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Ewing, Mrs. Winifred Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Fernyhough, E. Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Whitlock, William
Finch, Harold Mendelson, John Wilkins, W. A.
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Millan, Bruce Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) Miller, Dr. M. S. Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Foley, Maurice Milne, Edward (Blyth) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Forrester, John Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Fraser, John (Norwood) Morris, John (Aberavon) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Freeson, Reginald Murray, Albert Mr. Neil McBride and
Galpern, Sir Myer Neal, Harold Mr. Joseph Harper.
Ginsburg, David Ogden, Eric
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Iremonger, T. L. Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Kaberry Sir Donald Ridsdale, Julian
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) Royle, Anthony
Biffen, John King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Russell, Sir Ronald
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Lee, John (Reading) Sharples, Richard
Black, Sir Cyril Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Sheldon, Robert
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Silvester, Frederick
Booth, Albert Marten, Neil Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Monro, Hector Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) More, Jasper Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Carlisle, Mark Neave, Airey Waddington, David
Crouch, David Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) Ward, Dame Irene
Dalkeith, Earl of Page, Graham (Crosby) Weatherill, Bernard
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Page, John (Harrow, W.) Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Peyton, John
Hastings, Stephen Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pym, Francis Sir Knox Cunningham and
Heffer, Eric S. Quennell, Miss J. M. Mr. Ian Gilmour.
Hiley, Joseph Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

10.15 p.m.

Mr. Powell

On a point of order. I wonder whether you could give us your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will recall that, in the course of the Division which has just taken place, my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) drew your attention to the fact that he had heard moved from the Treasury Bench the Motion, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again. You subsequently put the Question to the House, That the Proceedings on the Parliament (No. 2) Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed. What I wish to submit to you is that that Motion, in order validly to be put by you from the Chair, requires to be moved from the Treasury Bench and that it was not, at any rate audibly to this side of the House, so moved. Could you please give us your guidance on what actually took place?

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Yes, I think I can help the right hon. Gentleman. The procedure on occasions like this when a suspension Motion is to be moved, is that the Chairman leaves the Chair without putting any Question. It is reported, that the Chairman reports Progress and asks leave to sit again, whereupon—this is what in fact happened—the occupant of the Chair calls on the Prime Minister to move the suspension Motion on the Order Paper. That is exactly what happened this evening. It is perfectly in order.

Mr. Peyton

Further to that point of order. May I ask for guidance here. Every change in our procedures is made to expedite and facilitate the procedures

of the Executive, not the House. They represent changes which prejudice the position of the Opposition and those who disagree with the Bill. Though you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, called upon the Prime Minister to move the Motion, the right hon. Gentleman—and we are all grateful for it—was conspicuous by his absence and no one heard the Motion moved which you subsequently put.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Any Minister can stand in for the Prime Minister and it does not require an audible——

Mr. Bruce Campbell (Oldham, West)


Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The tradition is that a nod is enough.

Sir Knox Cunningham

On a point of order——

Mr. Deputy Speaker