HC Deb 23 October 1968 vol 770 cc1487-90

Lords Amendment No. 128: In page 56, line 4, at end insert new Clause "J"— J.—(1) Section 164 of the principal Act (power of Minister local planning authority or statutory undertakers on acquisition or appropriation of land for development, by service of notice to secure extinguishment of statutory undertakers' rights over the land or the removal of their apparatus) shall be amended in accordance with this section. (2) A notice under that section shall not be served by the acquiring or appropriating authority unless they are satisfied that the extinguishment of the statutory undertakers' right or, as the case may be, the removal of their apparatus, is necessary for the purposes of carrying out any development with a view to which the land was acquired or appropriated. (3) The period referred to in subsection (1) of the said section (that is to say the period to be specified in a notice under the section as the period at the end of which the statutory undertakers' right will be extinguished or, as the case may be, before the end of which their apparatus shall be removed) shall be a period of not less than twenty-eight days from the date of service of the notice.

Read a Second time.

Mr. Graham Page

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Lords Amendment in line 18, leave out 'twenty-eight days' and insert a reasonable period (having regard to the character and quantity of the apparatus)'. This is an Amendment to a new Clause which deals with the question of supply undertakers who have their apparatus in land which has been acquired by statutory undertakers. My concern here is really for the public, not the undertakers concerned. It is to see that the public does not suffer from one statutory undertaker taking over land in which there is supply apparatus, maybe gas, electricity or water, which is serving the public.

It seems extraordinary that the Clause the undertaker who acquires the land can give so short a notice as 28 days to the supply undertaker to remove his apparatus. This may be a very substantial job. I thought that I had not read the Clause correctly at first. Surely it could not be that one statutory undertaker could insist that another should remove a great area of, perhaps, electric cables or water mains, within a period of 28 days.

I put down this Amendment so that an undertaker could be given a reasonable period of time, having regard to the amount of work he will have to do to remove the apparatus, the character of the apparatus and the quantity, so that one statutory undertaker could not force another to carry out this work within 28 days.

Mr. Greenwood

I hope that I shall be forgiven if I first describe the new Clause, to which this is an Amendment. The purpose of the Clause is to improve the machinery relating to service of notices under Section 164 of the 1962 Act. Under that Section, where any land has been acquired or appropriated by a Minister, local authority or statutory undertaker for planning purposes, the acquiring or appropriating authority may serve notice on any statutory undertakers having apparatus on, under or over that land, extinguishing their rights to have the apparatus or requiring its removal. The Section does not set any limit to the circumstances in which such a notice can be served or the time which must be allowed before it takes effect. Subsection (2) of the new Clause deals with the circumstances in which notice may be served and subsection (3) requires that at least 28 days shall be allowed for the removal of apparatus required by the notice.

1.15 a.m.

The effect of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) would be to replace the reference to 28 days by a reasonable period (having regard to the character and quantity of the apparatus)". I do riot think that the Amendment would help. It is necessary to have a specific minimum period which is reasonable both to the authority and to the statutory undertakers. Unless a precise minimum is stated, it would be open to an authority to reduce the period drastically and it would be open to vexatious dispute as to what is a reasonable minimum in a given case.

The Clause as it stands gives a reasonable floor upon which the authority and the undertaker can stand in making an arrangement for a particular case. I

" K.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, where land has been acquired or appropriated as mentioned in section 164(1) of the principal Act, and—
(a) there is on, under or over the land any apparatus vested in or belonging to statutory undertakers; and
10 (b) the undertakers claim that development to be carried out on the land is such as to require, on technical or other grounds connected with the carrying on of their undertaking, the removal or re-siting of the apparatus, affected by development
the undertakers may serve on the acquiring or appropriating authority a notice claiming the right to enter on the land and carry out such works for the removal or re-siting of the apparatus or any part of it as may be specified in the notice.
15 (2) Where, after the land has been acquired or appropriated as aforesaid, development of the land is begun to be carried out, no notice under this section shall be served later than twenty-one days after the beginning of the development.
20 (3) Where a notice is served under this section, the authority on whom it is served may, before the end of the period of twenty-eight days from the date of service, serve on the statutory undertakers a counter-notice stating that they object to all or any of the provisions of the notice and specifying the grounds of their objection.
25 (4) If no counter-notice is served under subsection (3) above, the statutory undertakers shall, after the end of the period of twenty-eight days therein mentioned, have the rights claimed in their notice.
30 (5) If a counter-notice is served under subsection (3) above, the statutory undertakers who served the notice under this section may either withdraw it or may apply to the Minister and the appropriate Minister for an order under this section conferring on the undertakers the rights claimed in the notice or such modified rights as the Minister and the appropriate Minister think it expedient to confer on them.
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40 (6) Where, by virtue of this section or of an order of Ministers thereunder, statutory undertakers have the right to execute works for the removal or re-siting of apparatus, they may arrange with the acquiring or appropriating authority for the works to be carried out by that authority under the superintendence of the undertakers, instead of by the undertakers themselves.
45 (7) Where works are carried out for the removal or re-siting of statutory undertakers' apparatus, being works which the undertakers have the right to carry out by virtue of this section or an order of Ministers thereunder, the undertakers shall be entitled to compensation from the acquiring or appropriating authority; and the amount of the compensation shall be an amount calculated in accordance with subsections (2) to (4) of section 171 of the principal Act but reduced, in a case where the authority carry out the works by the actual cost to the authority of doing so.
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hope, therefore, that the House will reject the Opposition Amendment and will agree with the Lords Amendment.

Question put and negatived.

Lords Amendment agreed to.