§ 6. Mr. MacArthurasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been achieved towards meeting the employment targets set in paragraph 1 of Command Paper No. 2864, The Scottish Economy; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. RossSignificant progress has been achieved—particularly in higher levels of investment, industrial building and new jobs and relatively lower unemployment and a reduction in net emigration to England.
§ Mr. MacArthurIs the Minister aware that, contrary to the theme of his Answer just now, although the White Paper contemplated an increase in jobs of between 50,000 and 60,000 by 1970, the number of jobs in Scotland has fallen by 32,500? Is not the right hon. Gentleman thoroughly ashamed of this record?
§ Mr. RossNo, Sir, not at all. The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that, if one starts taking interim years, whether in the previous four years in which he is making his comparison, one gets different figures. We have every reason to be satisfied with the large number of new jobs coming in, and with the way in which Scotland has stood up in the present economic atmosphere, which shows a strengthening of the pattern of Scottish industry.
§ Mr. NobleDoes the right hon. Gentleman mean by that—I think everybody appreciates the difficulties of interim years—that he still expects to reach his target by 1970?
§ Mr. RossI think what I have said is that our target should remain. This is a considerable improvement. Whether we shall reach it as quickly as that depends on how quickly we put right the whole general economic situation in Britain.
§ 11. Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will instruct the Scottish Development Department to carry out a survey into the 1261 reasons for the decline in the number of persons in employment in Scotland since 1964.
§ Mr. RossThe causes of the decline in male employment, which started long before 1964, were fully analysed in the White Paper on the Scottish Economy. The Government's wide-ranging measures for dealing with the problem are now taking effect.
§ Mr. Bruce-GardyneThe right hon. Gentleman will recall that during those last three years of Tory—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member must put his question in question form.
§ Mr. Bruce-GardyneWill the right hon. Gentleman recall that during the last three years of the Tory Government when he was driving industry away from Scotland with his cries of woe the number of persons in employment in Scotland increased by 16,000? Over the corresponding period since then the number has dropped by 13,000. Is it not about time the right hon. Gentleman changed his job?
§ Mr. RossI think it is time the hon. Gentleman changed his books of reference, or looked more closely into them. He will find that it depends on which year he takes. If he took 1963, he would get a different result. We must not judge these things too quickly. The result of the actions that we took in 1965, 1966, and 1967 in relation to the greatly increased drive for new industry will prove by 1970 that the figures suggested by the hon. Gentleman are far too gloomy.
§ Mr. NobleThe right hon. Gentleman is asking the House to be too naive about this. We all want to get more jobs. Whatever books of reference we take, we see that there has been a considerable drop in the number of jobs. I do not think he can ask the House—
§ Mr. SpeakerQuestion.
§ Mr. NobleHow can the right hon. Gentleman justify his statement to the House that his policies are being effective, in view of the drop in the number of jobs?
§ Mr. RossThe right hon. Gentleman should bear in mind that since we became 1262 the Government there has been a doubling of effort in new factory building in Scotland, and a considerable improvement in relation to male jobs. What we are up against is a considerable run-down in agriculture, of men leaving agriculture, and leaving the traditional industry of mining and other heavy industries.