Rhodesia (Hansard, 22 October 1968)

§ 1. Mr. Judd
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the results so far of sanctions against Rhodesia.

§ 4. Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement as to the effect on Rhodesia of the intensified sanctions imposed earlier this year.

§ 6. Mr. Winnick
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of international sanctions against the illegal régime in Rhodesia.

§ The Minister Without Portfolio (Mr. George Thomson)
I have been asked to reply.
It is too early to assess the effect of the intensified sanctions called for by the United Nations Security Council Resolution No. 253 of 29th May. But as hon. Members will be aware, from the many statements on the subject which have been made by my colleagues and myself, there is abundant evidence of the effect of previously existing sanctions. There is no doubt in my mind that comprehensive sanctions will continue to add to the pressures on the Rhodesian economy.

§ Mr. Judd
Would not my right hon. Friend agree that some form of international investigatory machinery would strengthen the application of international 1060 sanctions? Are the Government putting forward any proposals in this respect?

§ Mr. Thomson
That is a matter for the United Nations, which has set up a United Nations Supervisory Committee.

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
Whatever may have been the effect of the major sanctions, does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the petty excesses of them such as the confiscation of school-children's passports and the blocking of small pensions has done nothing but harden opinion and, therefore, make the kind of settlement that we all want much more difficult to obtain?

§ Mr. Thomson
No, Sir. I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's premise. The proposals that we will be discussing later this afternoon arise, I think, directly from the increased awareness in Rhodesia of what sanctions mean for that economy. With regard to the particular points mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, we are, of course, always ready to look at individual cases.

§ Mr. Winnick
Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us in the Labour movement, both in this House and outside, would like stiffer sanctions to be applied rather than that he should be going to Salisbury in the near future to beg the illegal régime to accept the "Fearless" proposals? Does my right hon. Friend still intend to go to Salisbury?

§ Mr. Thomson
My hon. Friend's final question goes a good deal wide of the Question and I ask him to await the debate later this afternoon. As to his earlier question, I am not begging anybody for anything. As far as improving sanctions are concerned, if other countries, through the United Nations, would come up to our level, that would make a distinct difference.

§ Mr. Turton
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the consumer price indices show that prices here have risen by more than half as much again as in Rhodesia?

§ Mr. Thomson
I do not know what conclusion the right hon. Gentleman draws from that fact, which I do not necessarily accept. The truth is that ordinary people in Rhodesia are increasingly feeling the effect of both the political 1061 and the economic isolation. That, I think, has been a factor in some of the recent developments in Rhodesia.

§ 5. Sir G. Nabarro
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further representations he has made to the Zambian Government about allowing further African terrorists to train on Zambian territory for later clandestine entry into Rhodesia.

§ Mr. George Thomson
I have been asked to reply.
I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) on 2nd of July.—[Vol. 767, c. 1275–6.]

§ Sir G. Nabarro
That was no reply at all. Is it not a fact that the continued training of terrorists on Zambian territory with British money has already caused South African police to be quartered in Rhodesia, and is not this likely to injure further the otherwise harmonious relations between Britain and the Republic of South Africa?

§ Mr. Thomson
No British money is going into the training of guerrillas—

§ Sir G. Nabarro
It is going into Zambia.

§ Mr. Thomson
—of guerrillas anywhere. So far as Zambia is concerned. President Kaunda has repeated as recently as 9th October that there was no training of guerrillas going on in his country.

§ 7. Mr. Wingfield Digby
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the latest situation in Rhodesia.

§ Mr. George Thomson
I have been asked to reply.
I would ask the hon. Member to await the debate on Rhodesia which is to take place later today.

§ Mr. Digby
If there is any fundamental change in the situation after this Session ends on Friday and before the next Session begins will the right hon. Gentleman find some way of making a statement so that hon. Members may be informed?

§ Mr. Thomson
That is a matter for the Leader of the House, but it will cer- 1062 tainly, I am sure, be the wish of my right hon. Friend that the House should be kept informed of any important developments.

§ 9 and 10. Mr. Biggs-Davison
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) whether he will make a statement on the position of the Rhodesian judiciary, with special reference to the Privy Council judgment in Madzimbamuto versus Lardner-Burke and others;

§ 11. Mr. William Hamilton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the position of the judges in Rhodesia following the order from the Privy Council for the release from detention of Mr. Daniel Madzimbamuto.

§ Mr. George Thomson
I have been asked to reply.
Under the Constitution of Southern Rhodesia, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is the final court of appeal and its judgments are binding on the courts of Southern Rhodesia. In a number of recent cases in Salisbury this has been disputed. This legal conflict is bound up with the wider conflict which our new proposals for a settlement are designed to resolve. While these proposals are under discussion I do not think it would be helpful for me to comment further.

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply take account of the more recent ruling of the Appellate Division of the High Court in Salisbury that Rhodesian independence is de jure, and is The Times newspaper right to say that Rhodesian illegality is now as much a matter of form as was George Washington's illegality after Yorktown?

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member must be responsible for his own statements and he cannot ask for the vouching of a newspaper report.

§ Mr. Thomson
My reply takes account of the Rhodesian High Court hearing of 13th September and it is being studied, but it must be studied in relation to other developments.

§ Mr. William Hamilton
Does my right hon. Friend not agree that this episode underlines the complete futility of the pretence of a constitutional safeguard which is underwritten by Rhodesian judges, and that that is one of the major weaknesses of the agreement in Gibraltar?

§ Mr. Thomson
No. I do not think so. In the proposals which have been put forward in the White Paper, which will be debated later today, there is a presupposition of a return to legality. In those circumstances, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council would have an entirely different rôle from that it has had in the disputes of the last few months?

§ Mr. Whitaker
May I press my right hon. Friend on this? Does not the fact that Beadle and the remaining judges, Lardner-Burke and Smith, showed that they are totally prepared to ignore the Privy Council this year demonstrate the absolute uselessness of regarding them in any way as a safeguard for the "Fearless" proposals?

§ Mr. Thomson
No. I do not accept that, for the reasons which I have just given. The reason why the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was so flagrantly flouted over recent months arose out of the present illegality of the constitution in Rhodesia. If a settlement were arrived at, then the legal régime of Rhodesia would need to tear up the constitution for a second time before the Judicial Committee could be flouted.

§ 14. Mr. Wall
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement about guerrilla activity against Rhodesia.

§ Mr. George Thomson
I have been asked to reply.
I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to the hon. Gentleman on 2nd July.—[Vol. 767, c. 1283–4.]

§ Mr. Wall
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that regrettably many people in South 1064 Africa believe that Her Majesty's Government connive in these guerrilla activities? Will he take the opportunity again to deny this and to say at the same time what approaches have been made to the Zambian Government to end these activities?

§ Mr. Thomson
The Zambian Government have no doubt whatever about our point of view. We take every opportunity to make it known to them. Her Majesty's Government have always taken the view that force and violence are not the right way to get a satisfactory settlement in Rhodesia. I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman chose to say on the radio about what we had done in no way to encourage further violence.

§ 23. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of compliance to date with the extension of United Nations mandatory sanctions, as decided upon in May, 1968.

§ Mr. George Thomson
I have been asked to reply.
The resolution requires Member States to report to the Secretary-General on measures taken to implement it and provides for the establishment of a Committee of the Council to examine reports from the Secretary-General. To date 75 countries have replied. The Supervisory Committee, of which Britain is a member, have not yet considered the Secretary-General's reports.

§ Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile with the sort of answers that he gave earlier the fact that, according to his Government's figures, French imports from Rhodesia since May have increased by 25 per cent, and exports to Rhodesia by 36 per cent., German imports by 90 per cent, and Japanese imports by over 200 per cent., and that French and German trade with Rhodesia is now running at a higher level than before U.D.I.?

§ Mr. Thomson
I must repeat the answer I gave earlier. It is too early to see the effect of the resolution in May. I am familiar with the hon. Gentleman's mass of statistics, but amongst those countries which have now replied to the Secretary-General and which are enacting the necessary legislation in their own 1065 Parliaments are all our major trading competitors. The resolution, which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have opposed, will put our trading competitors under the same sort of handicaps and obligations as British traders.

§ 31. Mr. Kelley
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who were the people, of different races, occupations and political views who had discussions with the Assistant Under-Secretary of State in the Commonwealth Office on his missions to Rhodesia on 20th September last.

§ Mr. George Thomson
I have been asked to reply.
They covered a very wide range of political views and included members of the African, European and Asian communities.

§ Mr. Kelley
Is my hon. Friend aware that unless there is acceptance by the world at large, through the United Nations, and by the Commonwealth, that certain political interests in Rhodesia have been consulted before any settlement is arrived at, that settlement will not be acceptable or credible under those circumstances, and that these people who are held in subjection and internment and have not been approached by Her Majesty's Government for their opinions will reject the settlement?

§ Mr. Thomson
Yes. My hon. Friend puts his finger on a crucial element of any settlement which could be commended to the House, namely, that there must be an adequate test of acceptability carried out in proper conditions to make sure that any settlement is acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole.