HC Deb 21 October 1968 vol 770 cc882-5
43. Mr. McNamara

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will seek to refer to the Select Committee on Procedure the convention whereby members of the House are unable to discuss matters or table questions relating to the administration in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Peart

No, Sir. The House is already free to discuss, on an appropriate Motion, those Northern Ireland affairs which are within the transferred field.

Mr. McNamara

But would not my right hon. Friend understand that that is a most disappointing Answer, particularly in view of the brutalities which we witnessed on television in Londonderry a week last Saturday and particularly because of statements in the Press this week that the Royal Ulster Constabulary were stationed on H.M.S. "Eagle" the evening before they went into action in Londonderry and also because—

Captain Orr

On a point of order. The Lord Privy Seal said that it is not his intention that the convention should be upset whereby questions are asked which are properly within the confines of the Parliament of Northern Ireland. Surely, this is precisely what the hon. Member is now trying to do.

Mr. Speaker

The question is about whether Ministers should change the convention.

Mr. McNamara

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member must be brief.

Mr. McNamara

I wanted to raise a point further to that point of order, but, in view of what you have said, Mr. Speaker, I will curtail my remarks. In view of the fact that this Government give a subvention to the Northern Ireland Government of over £100 million a year, surely we in this House can discuss civil rights for our own fellow citizens?

Mr. Peart

My hon. Friend will appreciate that I answered what I think was really the point at issue, in relation to the constitutional position over responsibility. I did not seek to deploy an argument about matters which my hon. Friend has raised concerning brutality, which I deplore. As I said, the House is already free to discuss, on an appropriate Motion, those Northern Ireland affairs which are within the transferred field. It is up to my hon. Friend to make his position felt if he so wishes.

Mr. Chichester-Clark

When the right hon. Gentleman is considering these matters, would he bear in mind that it is ill-informed sniping of the kind which we have just heard which may in the end drive people in Northern Ireland into undesirable entrenched positions and, indeed, destroy moderate opinion there?

Mr. Peart

No one in the House wishes to encourage bigotry, from whatever quarter it may come. I deplore it. It is only right that we should, by our actions, encourage free discussion, above all in areas where we have responsibilities. That is important. I merely say that it is open to individuals to make their points.

Mr. Fitt

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the United Kingdom Government have been prevented from signing the European Convention on Human Rights because of the existence of the Special Powers Act in Northern Ireland? Would he not regard this as a most appropriate matter to be discussed by all sections in the House? Further, is he aware that it is only by question and answer and discussion in the House that we can relieve the frustration which has brought about such a tense situation in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member must be brief.

Mr. Fitt

Finally, on the matter which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), will he give an assurance that the defence forces of the Crown will not go to the aid of the Northern Ireland Unionist Party in the suppression of civil liberties?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The last part of that question is out of order.

Mr. Peart

I understand my hon. Friend's feeling on this. As I said, I deplore brutality—[Interruption.]—indeed, from whatever side it may come. That is not in question. I have always argued, as hon. Members know, for good relations between north and south. When I was Minister of Agriculture, I tried to encourage this: unfortunately, some hon. Members opposite tried to disagree with me on this, but I believe that I was right to do it. I merely say that hon. Members have opportunities in the House. The House is free to discuss, on an appropriate Motion, those Northern Ireland affairs which are within the transferred field. That is the position, and hon. Members have that right.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one cause of concern is that the Government have not merely stood by the 1920 Act but have interpreted certain conventions which have no juridical validity to suppress debate in this House—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The right hon. Gentleman must link his remark with the Question.

Mr. Thorpe

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, when this House is expected to vote millions of pounds every year to Ulster, and when Ulster Members of Parliament have no inhibitions about interfering in our internal affairs, it is quite intolerable that this House does not urgently and in detail discuss matters going on in Ulster today?

Mr. Peart

The right hon. Gentleman should appreciate that I have answered the Question and have not tried to evade it. He has raised a wider question. It is up to hon. Members to make representations to Ministers concerned. I am merely suggesting the position for which I answer as Leader of the House. If it is constitutionally possible to have a debate on these issues, it is for hon. Members to make their representations.