§
Lords Amendment No. 156: In page 157, line 31, at end insert:
including the owner and occupier of the land for which the crossing is maintained.
§ Read a Second time.
§ Mr. CarmichaelI beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
If this Amendment were accepted the Minister would be empowered to require the Railways Board to increase protection at crossings which are entirely private. The Government intend to use the powers under this Clause to improve protection at a number of crossings where the public use of the road justifies this; but they would not wish to make the Railways Board solely responsible for the cost of improvements to entirely private crossings. The Board has a general obligation for the safety of trains and it is in the interests of both the Board and the landowner to agree between themselves on any improvements which may be desirable at particular private crossings.
The Government are aware that this has involved practical difficulties in a number of cases, owing to the high cost of additional safety measures, but they do not consider that placing sole responsibility on the Board is an equitable answer. Discussions designed to find a solution to the practical difficulties will be taking place shortly as was mentioned by Lord Winterbottom in another place on Report, between the Ministry, the National Farmers' Union and the Railways Board. It was suggested by Lord Nugent of Guildford on Report that the Ministry should make a contribution to the cost of additional safety measures at private crossings in order to keep down the costs falling on the Board and on farmers. The analogy was suggested of the construction of motorways where the Ministry meets the cost of accommodation bridges and tunnels serving farmers' 1032 interests, but the analogy is not complete. The Ministry, as highway authority, has a direct responsibility for trunk roads. On the other hand, although he is concerned for rail safety, the Minister has no direct responsibility for financing railway safety measures.
11.0 p.m.
Where, as a result of this Clause costs would be incurred in improving a level crossing, and providing occupation roads now used by the public, they have been taken into account in accordance with the recommendations of the joint steering group in the qualifications made to the proposals for the recapitalisation of the railways.
Mr. Geoffrey WilsonI do not think that the Minister's explanation is satisfactory. Under this Clause the Minister has power to require the Railways Board to provide such protection at level crossings over roads other than public carriage roads as he considers necessary for the protection or convenience of the public. This Amendment was discussed at length in the other place and it is not a small matter. As was pointed out by Lord Windlesham, there are 10,000 private farm crossings concerned in this, and the National Farmers' Union in 1963 pointed out that 600 were in need of further protection. The Minister of Agriculture is able to make a grant towards helping them.
In another place, in resisting this Amendment, Lord Winterbottom used the argument which the hon. Gentleman has just used, that although the obligation was on the railway companies to look after the safety of their passengers, they had no responsibility for adjoining owners. This is an ancient principle, an old-fashioned idea which goes back to the Railways Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, Section 68, which very much limited the accommodation works which the railway had to provide for adjoining owners.
The analogy is a motorway. Without question, when a motorway is built, an underpass is provided for the benefit of adjoining farmers and not at a cost to them. It is built at the cost of the constructors of the motorway. There is no reason why a farmer should be expected to pay for the construction of a level crossing in modern times. It was 1033 all very well in the days of steam trains which were pretty slow, but with modern trains, an accommodation crossing is as dangerous as a public crossing and there have been serious accidents on the private crossings as on the public ones in recent years.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) and I recently saw some of the modernisation schemes which British Railways envisage. One is a high speed train which is intended to do 150 m.p.h. on existing track. At those sort of speeds, a farm gate crossing is a positive menace and something better will have to be provided. This Clause, as amended by another place, would be desirable because it gives the Minister a good deal of discretion to act as he considers necessary or desirable for the protection or convenience of the public. The Amendment leaves the onus on the Minister to consider what is necessary or desirable, and if he does not consider it so, it is not necessary. If it is necessary, I do not
§ see why a farmer should not have payment made to provide protection.
Mr. Edward M. TaylorThis is a complex and difficult problem, to which there is no easy answer. In the course of the discussion in the House of Lords it was pointed out that negotiations were taking place, but, unfortunately, we have had no final word about these. If we leave things as they are, some farmers may be faced with the expenditure of about £1,000 or more to obtain access to their own land. We on this side cannot be insensitive to these major and human problems facing the important agricultural industry. In these circumstances, we have no option but to resist the Government in their move to disagree with the Lords Amendment.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 208.
1037| Division No. 306.] | AYES | 11.5 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Cronin, John | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) |
| Albu, Austen | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Hamling, William |
| Alldritt, Walter | Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Harper, Joseph |
| Allen, Scholefield | Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Anderson, Donald | Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith |
| Archer, Peter | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Haseldine, Norman |
| Ashley, Jack | Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Hattersley, Roy |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hazell, Bert |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Dell, Edmund | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Barnes, Michael | Dempsey, James | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret |
| Barnett, Joel | Dewar, Donald | Hilton, W. S. |
| Baxter, William | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) |
| Beaney, Alan | Dickens, James | Hooley, Frank |
| Bence, Cyril | Dobson, Ray | Horner, John |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Doig, Peter | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | |
| Blackburn, F. | Eadie, Alex | Howie, W. |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Ellis, John | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) |
| Booth, Albert | English, Michael | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Boston, Terence | Ensor, David | Hunter, Adam |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Hynd, John |
| Boyden, James | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Faulds, Andrew | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) |
| Bradley, Tom | Fernyhough, E. | Janner, Sir Barnett |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Finch, Harold | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Brooks, Edwin | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Jeger, Mrs. Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Ford, Ben | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) |
| Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) | Forrester, John | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Buchan, Norman | Fowler, Gerry | Jones, Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Freeson, Reginald | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Gardner, Tony | Kenyon, Clifford |
| Cant, R. B. | Ginsburg, David | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Gourlay, Harry | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Lawson, George |
| Chapman, Donald | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Coe, Denis | Gregory, Arnold | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) |
| Coleman, Donald | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) |
| Lipton, Marcus | Norwood, Christopher | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Oakes, Gordon | Silverman, Julius |
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Ogden, Eric | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | O'Malley, Brian | Slater, Joseph |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Orbach, Maurice | Small, William |
| McBride, Neil | Orme, Stanley | Spriggs, Leslie |
| McCann, John | Oswald, Thomas | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| MacDermot, Niall | Owen, Will (Morpeth) | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Macdonald, A. H. | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| McGuire, Michael | Paget, R. T. | Swingler, Stephen |
| McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Palmer, Arthur | Taverne, Dick |
| Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Park, Trevon | Thornton, Ernest | |
| Mackie, John | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Tinn, James |
| Maclennan, Robert | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Tomney, Frank |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Pavitt, Laurence | Urwin, T. W |
| McNamara, J. Kevin | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| MacPherson, Malcolm | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Pentland, Norman | Wallace, George |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | Watkins David (Consett) |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) | Weitzman, David |
| Manuel, Archie | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Mapp, Charles | Price, William (Rugby) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Marks, Kenneth | Probert, Arthur | Whitlock, William |
| Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Rankin, John | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Rees, Merlyn | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Maxwell, Robert | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Mayhew, Christopher | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Mendelson, J, J. | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Millan, Bruce | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Miller, Dr. M. S. | Robinson, Rt.Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as) | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Roebuck, Roy | Winnick, David |
| Molloy, William | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Rose, Paul | Woof, Robert |
| Morris, Charles (Openshaw) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Yates, Victor |
| Moyle, Roland | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) | |
| Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Sheldon Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Neal, Harold | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Mr. J. D. Concannon and |
| Newens, Stan | Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Mr. Ernest Armstrong. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Crouch, David | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere |
| Astor, John | Crowder, F. P. | Harvie Anderson, Miss |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Dalkeith Earl of | Hastings, Stephen |
| Awdry, Daniel | Dance, James | Hawkins, Paul |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hay, John |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel |
| Balniel, Lord | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward |
| Batsford, Brian | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Heseltine, Michael |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Bell, Ronald | Doughty, Charles | Hill, J. E. B. |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Drayson, G. B. | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Bessell, Peter | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | |
| Biffen, John | Eden, Sir John | Holland, Philip |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Emery, Peter | Hordern, Peter |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Eyre, Reginald | Hornby, Richard |
| Blaker, Peter | Farr, John | Hunt, John |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Fisher, Nigel | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Fortescue, Tim | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Braine, Bernard | Foster, Sir John | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) |
| Brewis, John | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Gibson-Watt, David | Jopling, Michael |
| Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.Sir Waller | Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Bryan, Paul | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Kerby, Capt. Henry |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) | Glyn, Sir Richard | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Goodhart, Philip | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Goodhew, Victor | Kitson, Timothy |
| Burden, F. A. | Gower, Raymond | Knight, Mrs. Jill |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Grant, Anthony | Lambton, Viscount |
| Campbell Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. |
| Carlisle, Mark | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Lane, David |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Gurden, Harold | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Clark, Henry | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) |
| Clegg, Walter | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Longden, Gilbert |
| Cooke, Robert | Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh) | Loveys, W. H. |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Lubbock, Eric |
| Cordle, John | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Costain, A. P. | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | MacArthur, Ian |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Pounder, Rafton | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| McMaster, Stanley | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Maddan, Martin | Prior, J. M. L. | Tilney, John |
| Maginnis, John E. | Pym, Francis | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Marten, Neil | Quennell, Miss J. M. | van Straubenzee, W, R. |
| Maude, Angus | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Mawby, Ray | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Waddington, David |
| Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wall, Patrick |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Royle, Anthony | Walters, Dennis |
| Monro, Hector | Russell, Sir Ronald | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Scott-Hopkins, James | Webster, David |
| More, Jasper | Sharples, Richard | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Murton, Oscar | Silvester, Frederick | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Sinclair, Sir George | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Neal, Harold | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Neave, Airey | Smith, John (London & W'minster) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Speed, Keith | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Stainton, Keith | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Nott, John | Steel, David (Roxburgh) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Onslow, Cranley | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) | Wright, Esmond |
| Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Summers, Sir Spencer | Wylie, N. R. |
| Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian | Tapsell, Peter | Younger, Hn. George |
| Osborn, John (Hallam) | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) | |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Teeling, Sir William | Mr. R. W. Elliott and |
| Percival, Ian | Temple, John M. | Mr. Bernard Weatherill. |
| Peyton, John |
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.